What Successfully Autistic and Queer Really Means

Segment 1

Transcript

What Being Successfully Autistic & Queer Really Means

June 4^th, 2023

Welcome everyone to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by an Autistic Adult.  My name is Philip King-Lowe. I am the owner, producer, and host; and I am an Autistic Adult. Thank you so much for listening.

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Today’s Autistic Moment is a free podcast that gives Autistic Adults access to important information, helps us learn about our barriers to discover the strengths and tools we already have to use for the work of self-advocacy. 

This first segment of Today’s Autistic Moment is sponsored by The Autism Society of Minnesota: Minnesota’s First Autism Resource.  For over 50 years The Autism Society of Minnesota has been honored to support Minnesota’s Autism Community. Visit them online at ausm.org.

Thank you for joining me on this Pride Month Special Episode: What Successfully Autistic & Queer Really Means.  My guest is Dr. Devon Price.

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In Eric Garcia’s book We’re Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation on page 3, Garcia starts to trace the history of Autism.  In 1911, Autism was considered a symptom of childhood schizophrenia.  It was later reflected in the first Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1952 in the section on “schizophrenic reactions before puberty.” It catalogued the condition under an umbrella of “psychotic reactions in children.”  Eric further explains the details of how Autism Spectrum Disorder was pathologized through newer editions of the DSM up to the present age.  It is within the last 10 or 20 years that we have seen a rise in the movement for neurodiversity that we have moved from a pathology of Autism to recognizing Autistic people as a neurotype.  Dr. Nick Walker in her book Neuroqueer Heresies: Notes on the Neurodiversity Paradigm, Autistic Empowerment and Postnormal Possibilities, suggests referring to Autistics as a neurominority.

During this past week, I found a very interesting article about the history of the word queer.  You may find it in the transcript for this episode by clicking on the article entitled Reviled, Reclaimed, Respected: A History of the Word Queer.  In the early 1900’s the word queer was used in a derogatory way. It wasn’t until the 1960’s and 1970’s that the word began to be used in place of the word homosexual, as the efforts for equal rights for LGBTQ people began.  The word queer was used to describe gay men as being more than their sexual behaviors, but as actual people.  When I was in school between 1974 and 1987, I was called a queer many times.  The word was used as a form of bullying and harassment.  The word was and is still used to describe an individual who lives outside of their gender norms.  The word queer was and still is used by many to say that they are in your face as rejecting the cultural standards of sexual orientation and/or gender identity and pursuing the lives they determine for themselves. 

This past April, you heard my conversation with David Gray-Hammond during the episode The New Normal, in which we talked about the words Neuroqueer.  Next October, you will be hearing from my special guest Dr. Nick Walker when we will talk about coming out as Neuroqueer.  Over the past few years, I have met many Autistic people who are not gay or lesbian, refer to themselves as queer for one reason or another.   I do consider myself to be Neuroqueer in that I have accepted my sexual orientation and Neurodiversity as my identity, and I can live very proudly as I am. 

One of the more derogatory ways that the words Autistic and Queer are used is to determine who is disordered and a failure because we cannot or do not change who we are or what we do to meet the expectations of the general population. 

Dr. Devon Price is my guest to talk about What Successfully Autistic & Queer Really Means.  We have been emphasizing the word really in the title because there are many who predetermine what being successfully Autistic and Queer means, without considering what those words really mean to us.  I can think of no better way to begin Pride month, than to talk about what success means for and to us as Autistic and Queer individuals. 

Dr. Devon Price is Autistic and a social psychologist, blogger, and author.  Dr. Price graduated with a BA in psychology and political science from Ohio State University in 2009.  Dr. Price obtained his MS and PhD from Loyola University in Chicago where he has been teaching as a clinical assistant professor at the School of Continuing and Professional Studies since 2012.  Dr. Price’s written works have explored the themes of Autism identity, trans identity, masking, and the mental health consequences of masking. Dr. Price has also delved into the intersection of Neurodiversity and the experiences of Autistic people of color.  Dr. Devon Price who is the author of the books Unmasking Autism: Discovering the New Faces of Neurodiversity and Laziness Does Not Exist.

After this first commercial break, Dr. Devon Price will talk about the importance of actual acceptance verses conditional acceptance plays a big role for Autistic Queer people to succeed. 

Commercial Break I

Segment 2

Philip King-Lowe 

Dr. Devon Price, thank you so much for being on this episode of Today's Autistic Moment. I have to tell you, wherever your name is mentioned, you have a lot of fans out there. So, thank you for taking time to be on this show.

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, thank you, Philip, so much for having me.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, you're welcome. All right. Well, this is our pride month special show. Over the last three years, I always try to have a, you know, some shows in June, that focus on pride. And also focus on pride for LGBTQIA+ pride, but also Autistic pride. And so, you know, we know that there is a fair amount of discrimination within both community of both communities that you know, represent each other. And, as part of year three here, where I am doing a focus on the Strengths and Achievements of Autistic Adults, I wanted to have this show where we talk about what being successfully autistic and queer really means. Because we know that success is defined a bit differently by both those communities. So, I'm gonna start with my first question, and then let you answer. What important information do you feel that Autistic Adults and our caregivers need to know, when we talk what success really means for Autistic people and queer people?

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, I think the one of the first things it's really important for people to be aware of is that there is a lot of pressure put on us to justify our existence as disabled people, or as queer people, through achievements. There's a lot of tentative acceptance of a certain category of Autistic people. And that's usually those of us who can mask somewhat as neurotypical, and usually those of us who can be high achieving in one area or another, that is profitable to somebody else, you know, we're seen as the, as the good ones as the respectable ones, the ones that have value. And I think sometimes it's very enticing. If you're an Autistic person, yourself, or even if you're just a concerned parent or caregiver, to lean into the strengths that an Autistic person has, and to lean into the kind of societal rewards you do get if you do happen to be good at something or, are able to mask. But I just think it's really important for people to know that that's a really tentative grasp on acceptance, it's very conditional acceptance. And so even for those of us who can, at least for a little while, live up to that ideal, it's really exhausting. And if we reach the point where we can't be, you know, well spoken, or, you know, professionally competent and high achieving anymore, you know, our lives still matter, and so do all of the lives of Autistic people who can't ever live up to that stuff. So yeah, so that's something that's been very heavy on my mind the last few years just as an Autistic person in the public eye. And because I've just seen more and more tech companies embracing Autistic workers, I've seen more companies in general embracing queer workers. And it can feel like such a positive thing to see. But if its only conditional acceptance based on what we can deliver to someone else, it’s not enough for either of our communities.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, it’s surface inclusion, basically. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, what do you think? Um, being successfully queer and, and LGBTQ, and Autistic? What do you think that really looks like?

Dr. Devon Price

I think it looks like finding your people, you know, you can’t really be liberated as a queer person without being able to live out that queerness in whatever way that means to you, you know, being in community with other people having the kinds of sex that you want to have having the kinds of relationships you want to have, forming your own notion of what a healthy relationship model is, or series of relationships is, and kind of getting to really define your own life on your own terms. And I think it’s the same thing for Autistic people too, I think being successful is knowing who you are, and knowing that there’s nothing wrong with who you are and seeing yourself reflected in other people. And having spaces where you can go where you can unmask. Where you can stim openly and info dump about the things that you’re passionate about, and having the freedom to kind of direct as much energy and time in your life as possible to the spaces that don’t make you feel broken, where you can actually live out who you really are versus who you’ve been expected to be.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. And our successes are going to look different. Then, if we mask or, as you know, those successes might be things such as there was a situation where our sensory processing was affected, we found a way to, to better regulate ourselves to bring ourselves back into a focus, that might be the success we might have at the moment. The success might be our, you know, indulging in our special interests and finding some kind of comfort or some level of connectedness to ourselves again. That is also success. Success is, you know, for Autistic people, it may not be the capitalistic society that says, you know, success is defined on how much money you earn, how much property you own, how many friends you have made, that sort of thing, our success is going to is going to look different won’t it?

Dr. Devon Price

Absolutely. And I think it is such a victory. Anytime we find the strength and clarity to say no to something, or to depart from a pursuit that is not rewarding to us anymore. You know, I think success for me as an Autistic person has been attaining the freedom to say I don’t want to keep rising through the ranks professionally. Even if maybe there’s a world where I could be capable of doing it, I would have to sacrifice so much of myself and so much of my comfort in order to do that. And there’s a lot of Autistic people who again, we have this one narrative of success, this one linear progression that’s imposed on all of us from the time we’re really young as kids, and anytime an Autistic person can say, actually, no, I don’t want to make my work my whole life, I want to live at a slower pace. I don’t want to do this. That’s a real success of autonomy and self-advocacy. And that’s really hard, because we are not given the tools normally to know how to do that stuff. So that’s a major success unto itself.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. And with successes like this, there’s also that risk that obviously we know how many of us are either unemployed or underemployed, living in poverty, living in conditions that are difficult to actually, you know, function in daily life. So, our successes do come with some tremendous risks.

Dr. Devon Price

Absolutely. And it requires a lot of kind of creative problem solving and collaboration to which I think is also why community is such a huge piece of it for many of us, if we’re not ever going to be capable of working the 40-hour workweek. And indeed, a lot of the research shows the 40-hour work week is too much for anybody honestly, but it’s particularly punishing for us. Then that means inventing new ways of cohabitating of sharing resources, sharing the load of preparing food and keeping a house clean with other people. Finding different ways to just kind of live at a pace that is going to be sustainable when you know that you just can’t, you know, make it by independently in the way that people are expected to under capitalism right now.

Philip King-Lowe 

Right, exactly, yeah. Eric Garcia, who you and him know each other, but I whom I’ve also interviewed on Today’s Autistic Moment has spoken of that, you know, employment for Autistic people should not have the same expectations but for some reason. Society has attached being successfully employed onto someone who has got the top-notch job and is, you know, thriving, you know, financial and that sort of thing. But, you know, Autistical people, we do have our different way of measuring our successes.

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the things we’re most motivated by are just not going to be things that turn a profit. And that’s okay.

Philip King-Lowe  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I thank you for those answers.

After this next commercial break, Dr. Price will talk about masking as being detrimental for Autistics to Succeed, the barriers created by the LGBTQ communities hinder Autistic Queer people to find success, and why looking after our own needs by finding affirming communities is so crucial for our success. 

Commercial Break II

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The 4^th of July is coming up in a few weeks.  July 4^th is not the best day for many Neurodivergent people and those with PTSD because of the fireworks.  The sound of fireworks can be a terrible trigger for the auditory sensory processing needs of many Autistics.  If you are affected by the sound of fireworks wear your noise cancelling headphones to decrease the volume of the fireworks noise, and/or find a safe space where you can fidget or do something to distract you.  If you are a caregiver of an Autistic person of any age who is affected by such sounds, please do not make them attend the fireworks as the brightness of the lights and the loud noise from them can have serious repercussions.  Let them wear noise cancelling headphones without saying negative things to your Autistic individuals who react to these sounds.  They are not pretending, nor do they need to be made to feel that they are doing anything wrong.

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Segment 3

Philip King-Lowe

The second question, and I'm always in the middle of it when I ask it, but what are the barriers for Autistic Adults of all ages? For, you know, achieving what success really means? You've written a lot about masking. And masking, of course, is one of the big barriers that can really be difficult for us to achieve success. Would you like to talk a little bit because I just had an episode with Eric Garcia about Unmasking our Authentic Autistic Selves. And we know that masking unmasking is an important piece of what those barriers are. So, can you talk a little bit more about that?

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, yeah. When you're really in the throes of just reflexively masking all the time, you can't really attain success as an Autistic person, because you don't even know yet. What you really believe in, or what you really stand for a lot of the time. A lot of us have masked throughout our entire lives, because we've been dealt really, really severe social punishment and consequences for doing anything unusual or for just wanting or perceiving things a little bit off the beaten track. And so, we've learned to conform to a really narrow societal ideal, it's very similar to being in the closet as a queer person. You're pretending to be someone that you're not. And you're trying to hit these milestones that show people that you're normal. And when that is your main goal, seeming normal, seeming socially acceptable, it's really hard to access what you really dream about and what you're really passionate about. And even just what makes you feel uncomfortable in your body day to day. So many people that I've spoken to who are masked Autistics, were working on unmasking part of the journey for them, it's just learning to get in touch with their bodies and their comfort and their consent, again, because they've had to stifle every reaction that they have inside of them, saying, This is not a safe environment for me, or these clothes are not comfortable for me that I'm being forced to wear on the job, you know, any number of other sources of discomfort. So masking is a really, really huge barrier to authentically Autistic success, because you can't, you can't advocate for what you need, when you don't even know what it is, or you don't think it's legitimate yet. And another big barrier there, I think, is when you have masked all your life, the people around you, your family members, coworkers, people in your community, they have gotten to know a version of you, that isn't the real you. And so, then when you do start voicing your concerns, sometimes they can't handle it. Sometimes they view it as way too difficult to deal with. Where they can't believe that suddenly now, you're complaining about something that you never spoke up about before. So those external perceptions, and that invalidation is also a really huge barrier to finding that kind of success.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. And then when we talk about, you know, being queer, and, and also, the Autistic piece, and let me just, once again, announced that coming in October, you're going to hear from Nick Walker, who the writer of Neuroqueer Heresies. And I had David Gray-Hammond, who talked about queering our language queering, our, you know, as neurodiverse people, you know, we can queer these things in our in a way. But when we talk about our barriers, I mean, the queer piece, I come from a very different generation of how that word was used. When I was going to school, if they used that word, it was not meant as a compliment. It was meant to be marginalizing, it was meant to be harassment and that sort of thing. But let's say, you know, there's a queer side, of course, and I know for myself, you know, when I go to Pride celebrations, I have to put my headphones on because this music is just blasting everywhere. And I have a hard time with that. And luckily, The Autism Society, Minnesota has a tent where we can go into because the crowds are just everywhere, and that becomes so overwhelming. So, there's the queer piece of this, but there's also the Autistic piece of this. Let's talk about what some of those other barriers can be as we try to merge those together.

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, yeah, that's such a great point. Just the inaccessibility of a lot of queer spaces. So much of just queer culture revolves around drinking and bars and nightlife, and that is really difficult for a lot of people with sensory sensitivities to cope with and we also just know from the data that a lot of Autistic people have substance use struggles because many of us use substances to cope with sensory issues. And so, the if the only place that's safe to go and be yourself as a gay person or a bisexual person, or what have you, is a place where all you can do is drink to cope with the loud music and moving bodies, it's a really difficult position to be in. You can't really be at ease as yourself. And there's also just a lot of a lot of issues that, you know, both the Autistic and queer communities need to deal with in terms of things like fat phobia, or really narrow body image standards. You know, famously, the gay dating world can have, you know, in certain pockets of it a lot of superficiality and be really exclusionary to anybody who isn't kind of a white, skinny, buff guy, cisgender guy. So those things really overlap and a lot of our concerns because you know, a lot of Autistic people are trans. A lot of there's a lot of overlap between our communities. There's lots of queer, Autistic people are more likely to be out basically than the neurotypical people are. But the spaces where queer people gather, by and large, are our spaces where money can be made off of, you know, the nightlife and partying and given that we earn less than our neurotypical peers, and we're not going to be comfortable in those kinds of spaces. There's a lot of intersecting issues and barriers. Absolutely.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, yes. And also connecting with people on a physical level can be very challenging, because we have to create, we have to state boundaries, we have to create our boundaries for what our bodies can and can't do. And that can be a really difficult conversation to have with people. Right?

Dr. Devon Price

Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's so much of kind of the queer dating world and like cruising world, where there's these norms that are all about unspoken communication, that you convey that you're interested in someone through a glance that you hold for a certain amount of time. And, you know, if you can't even make eye contact comfortably, or authentically, which is certainly the case for me and many of us, then how are you going to navigate all these weird, unspoken kind of rules and norms? Yeah, you know, queer people, or maybe in general, a little bit better than cis people about communicating about sex and dating and, and not taking certain things for granted. But it's still the case that if you're Autistic, and you say, I need you to tell me how you're feeling or what you want, like explicitly, you can't imply it. That's still freaks a lot of people out, a lot of people are not willing to speak our language of you know, clear communication.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. My next part of this program, what steps should Autistic Adults and our supporters take to advocate for our needs? What, what success really means for us? And, you know, what, what sorts of things can we do to advocate? Let's talk about that first.

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah, one thing that can really help is having a support person with you, when you're having difficult conversations. If you have a close Autistic or neurodivergent, peer or someone who really gets it, bringing that person with you to things like doctor's appointments or to hard conversations with your family, or bringing them along to family gatherings where they can help kind of step in and affirm that your needs are legitimate, that can make a huge difference. I think, in order for us to be successful in building the kinds of lives that we want, and that we need, we need almost constant reminders that it's legitimate, that we're not crazy, that we're not overly sensitive. And all of these things that we get told all our lives. And it's really hard to not doubt yourself when you get all of those external messages doubting you. So, I think having people that you can check in with either physically actually, they're with you or that are always accessible from your phone or somebody that you can just message and get a little gut check on am I am I asking for too much here and getting it affirmed that you're not, that can be a huge a huge step. One thing that sometimes comes up in conversations about kind of like professionalism and masking is if you are in a situation where you do have to mask whether it's at work or at school, learning ways to use masking to achieve your goals and express your values rather than masking for the sake of making people like you or passing as neurotypical all the time, that can be useful. So, for example, if you notice there's some injustice happening at work, and you really need to speak out about it. And you know how to mask that might be a time when you can strategically use presenting in a particular way to push against the status quo. So that that can be useful though it also comes at a big cost. I'd be curious to think what else you kind of have in mind or found that works as well Philip because I think yeah, The struggles are, are massive and finding out the finding the tools and the strength to do it is really tough.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, yeah, well, in my particular circumstance, you know, for me, the traditional employment atmosphere just does not work for me. And I think part of it is learning to accept what does work for you and what does not. And then if you find a space where you can pursue something that will, then that's something you pursue. The other thing is, there are more supportive communities on social media now. I have spoken before about the incredible communities that exist on LinkedIn. That is how I find I'm finding some tremendous advocates, who are doing very much the same thing that I do, but they're doing it in their own unique ways. Finding other Autistic people who have, who have found working environments that work for them, you might ask them, what has worked for you. You know, one of the things about other Autistic people is that if you, when we talk to each other, we understand each what each other is going through. So, we can either say, you know, I don't really know, let's start a group conversation and find out you know, having those conversations and networking with other Autistics, and especially other Autistics who are also queer, LGBTQ, whatever the whatever that happens to be. The other thing too, is that I think you have to develop your boundaries. And you and I've said this, any number of times, you must be the expert about your brand, make and model of what being Autistic means. If you don't know, if you are not certain about that, it is difficult for you to advocate is difficult for you to know what you're doing or not doing. And the other part about, of course, is to become the expert about communicating what being Autistic means for you. And then, you know, the other part is that, that I would give is that, you know, you know, once some of us have are identified and I and others are late identified, it does take a while for you to get a sense of that when it is safe to unmask versus when you need to be masked. And I say that part of the work of unmasking actually comes with being, I'm gonna say this daringly honest. And I know that can be really, really difficult for us. But sometimes you just have a look, I am Autistic, it's not because of something you're doing. But I am Autistic. And I don't understand what you're saying. I don't understand what you mean. And sometimes I, you know, many of my guests on this show, we've advocated if somebody is not a safe person for you to be with, you have the right to say, I'm not going to invest in that relationship. You absolutely do have that right. And I know it's difficult, because so many of us are isolated, we feel the loneliness, and we want someone to just finally meet us and associate with us. And finding that is a really long haul. And so, something as difficult as it is you need to stay within that long haul. So please feel free to add to that.

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, I think that's beautifully said. I think a lot of us are people pleasers, a lot of us have masked for so long that we got really good at trying to anticipate other people's needs at the expense of our own. And we have a real scarcity mentality in our relationships. And one thing that's really hard to learn but so worth learning is that when you invest all that energy, worrying about pleasing other people, and making relationships that are kind of caustic to you work, when they're never going to work that takes away time and energy that you could be putting into relationships that can deepen and thrive. You don't have to just take whatever you can get from other people; it really might feel that way. But when you do start to open up the space in your life for meeting new people and for noticing the people who really do listen to you. You can go so much deeper and enrich those relationships and it's really worth it. But it's hard to take that plunge at first.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yes. Yeah. You know, and this is another piece of advice that I have often given, especially if you're talking about somebody, you're going to be dating um And this is this is really taking a huge risk. But I have said, in the very beginning, when you start that relationship and you tell you, you do tell that individual that you are Autistic. The first thing I think you should do is say is ask that person, quite honestly. Are you willing to take the time to learn about what being Autistic means for me? Are you willing to go with me to say, a therapist or some friends to help understand how Autism is affecting me in relationships? If that person says, No, absolutely not. That person is not the right person for you. I think you need to be that, that careful for yourself. Because if that person does say, No, that is not a relationship you want to be investing in. And that can be so hard, especially if you really like the person already. And I know a lot of us, like, when we first meet somebody, we're dating, we don't actually like that person, because they're being nice to us. But the thing is, is that if they're being even if they're being nice, if they're not willing to, you know, learn about us from us, and if you're constantly giving us messages, you know, why are you letting your disability to take over your life? No, that's not the sort of thing you need. You need somebody who is going to be willing to see you as a person. And see, as an Autistic person, the authentic person that you are, when you take that you want them to take that seriously. And you want to be sure that they're going to take that seriously, though, so go ahead. Go ahead from there.

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of a set of questions that I get a lot of times from readers are from Autistic people who are struggling with respect in maybe your relationship, maybe a friendship, even a member of their family. They want to know the exact right words, to use to advocate for themselves, to explain what they need. And I find myself often having to tell people that if somebody really respects you, and they really care, they're going to try to get it, you know, they might not get it the first time around, they might have follow up questions. But you won't need to say what you need perfectly in the most pristine, persuasive way to convince someone to care about you, you know, either they care about you, or they don't either they respect you, or they don't. And I think a lot of times, we know deep down whether someone does respect us, whether it's a parent, whether it's a dating partner, or if they don't respect us, and if they don't, they're not going to go to that kind of trouble of understanding. And I think a good litmus test for that is just Is this somebody who's able to admit that they were wrong once in a while? Can is it someone who can say, I'm sorry, I, I didn't understand you were in pain, or I didn't understand this is what you needed? And if there's someone who can do that, that's a green flag, for sure.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me just say that I have been married to a wonderful man for we've been together now 14 years. And you know, when I was first diagnosed, he went through a process with me and my therapist, therapist to better understand me. And even now, 14 years later, or, or 12 years later, since I've been diagnosed, there are still moments when we still have to say, I still have to explain to him something he didn't, didn't really understand. So, one of the things I would say that if you are in relationship, or you do enter into a relationship, I think it's wise to just be thinking that this is going to be something you'll be doing for probably most of your life. And as difficult as it is, you know, you need to be entered into that process. And that's why I say in the very beginning, you need to clarify for yourself that this person is actually willing to go through those steps with you. Even when there are days that your sensory overload is it, you need your safe space, and you need to explain to this person, but I can't. I can't be with you at this moment because I need some time to work on myself. You know, yeah, you need to you need to be building that kind of trust with each other.

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah. And there is such a magic to healthy conflict resolution. And I think it's something a lot of us aren't super familiar with as Autistics because people don't invest that time in us to go through a conflict productively. And usually, we're so uncomfortable with conflict because we've been ostracized so much that we want to paper over everything. And there's a real magic to being in a relationship with someone. And it doesn't have to just be romantic, but certainly that's where it happens a lot of the time too. But somebody who's willing to really grapple with these hard moments, and to realize we can't fully understand each other and that's okay, we can work through this and communicate and come to a better understanding and, and a hurt feeling isn't the end doesn't have to be the end of the world when both people are invested in understanding and doing right by each other. That can be so healing.

Philip King-Lowe

Yeah.

After this final commercial break, Dr. Price will give some words of support for our Autistic Transgender people who are victimized by the many bills that prohibit their right to exist, and the importance of recognizing and celebrating our intersectionality.  Immediately following that, Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board.

Commercial Break III

Future Shows

On June 18^th, I will be joined by Daren Howard who is the Deputy Director at The Autism Society of Minnesota for the episode Autistic Fathers Celebrate Father’s Day Too.  In a society where neurotypicals are “normal” and ableism is accepted on a conscious and sub-conscious level, a father is the masculine bread winner in the family who is a model of self-discipline and ingenuity.  Daren will talk about what being an Autistic father means for him.

July will be the start of the second annual Summer of Self-Care Series.

On July 2^nd, I will be joined by Matthew Lawrence The #ActuallyAutisticCoach for Self-Care Through Creating Good Boundaries.  Autistics have the right to have boundaries that keep us safe from abuse.  Autistics are often told that we do not keep the boundaries of others, but we have neurotypicals violating our boundaries all the time.  Matthew Lawrence is a life coach who works with Autistics to develop good boundaries.  Join Matthew and I as we talk about the boundaries that Autistics need for our personal health.

On July 16^th, Michelle Markman will return to Today’s Autistic Moment for Self-Care During Emotional Avalanches.  One experience most Autistics have had is emotional avalanches.  You feel really happy one minute, then the next, something happens and your emotions avalanche and take all your happiness with them.  Michelle will join me to talk about some great self-care tips for Autistics in those emotional avalanche moments.

Check out the Future Shows page on todaysautisticmoment.com for all upcoming shows.

Do you have any topic ideas for future episodes of Today’s Autistic Moment?  Go to the Contact Us page on todaysautisticmoment.com and submit your topic suggestions.  Go to the page for Be My Guest to submit a Guest Intake Form if you would like to be a guest.

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

Segment 3

Philip King-Lowe 

Before we conclude this interview, I feel that in this particular Pride month, I want we want to talk, I think directly to our, our Trans Autistic people who are being battered by a lot of these laws that are being passed. You know, back in April, I made a commentary about my concerns that and I knew it was I knew it was coming. But for example, Georgia passed a law that, that prohibits gender affirming care, including gender reassignment, but they also included a statement in their law that says that, you know, that transgender people, a gender dysphoria is a condition that often affects individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder. I knew I knew that sort of thing was coming, it was only a matter of time. But I think that we need to be clear, no, these things are not okay. And the other part is that we are hearing about gun violence left and right. And the other thing that really does concern me, is that when a shooter is identified as both transgender and Autistic that that I, that sends a message about us, that is just so not true. So, in your own words, if you don't mind, can we talk to that situation? Can we bring some hope, some words to our transgender people, our Autistic transgender people, as we're walking through these very difficult times?

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah, they are bleak times they remind me very much of I was in my adolescence in the early 2000s, when gay marriage bans were passing all across the country. And I was a teenager in Ohio, and I saw, you know, a gay marriage ban get passed in my home state. And it just really made it feel like I'd never be safe to be out as myself. And I think a lot of trans kids today are going through very much the same moment in so many states in this country. And I hope that this is a big wake up call to our cis allies, and to every other queer person who isn't trans that, that we need to bring back that level of momentum that we had in fighting those gay marriage bans, and really recognizing that this is a battle for our right to exist. I do see some signs here of just more and more cisgender journalists writing about it and allies being really alarmed by it. I wish that they had had noticed when we were sending the sounding the alarm on it sooner. But I think a lot of this is beyond the pale for a lot of people. We know from polling and just from, from just looking at how people's attitudes and awareness of trans people have changed over time, that this is not the majority position to view us as predators and to think that there's a sickness in us. Queerness was considered a mental illness, being gay was in the DSM until the late 70s. Being gay was in the DSM until the late 70s. Being gay was considered a mental illness for a long time. And we've moved to the point in society now where nobody of any good conscience views it under the pathology paradigm anymore. Certainly, there are fringe people still out there. And we're still fighting these battles. But awareness has turned over and people understand now that being gay is just a perfectly neutral, natural source of human diversity. And I think we're heading that way with both transness. And with Autism, frankly,

Philip King-Lowe 

We are. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, David Gray-Hammond, was on in April, you know, reminded us that the word disorder is a social construct, and it's constructed to make us look “disordered”. And, you know, we do we do think that there needs to be a day or time when Autistics are just like, you know, I mean, they're just another group of people that just happen to exist. But again, the transgender people, especially among there are a lot of trans people within our Autistic communities. There's a lot of non-binary people involved in our Autistic community. And the more that these things are being passed, the more of these things are being pushed. I am just aware of how not only is it harming those communities, it is affecting the Autistic community too. Let's make that connection here, please. Yeah.

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah, absolutely. You know, this, this overlap this intersection of oppression it hurts all Autistic people. When transphobic people come for trans people's rights and point out to the overlap of Autism and transness in some kind of scary factor. I saw this coming similar to you when JK Rowling wrote one of her turf wars blog posts a couple of years ago, she mentioned specifically this fear that she had in her mind and that many, especially British turfs, at the time had, that, that transness was this epidemic among confused Autistic teenagers that was really her speaking points early on. And the movement has really taken that and ran with it. And we know that Autistic people in general, are really good at refusing to follow social rules that strike us as unjust and wrong. Lots of Autistic people are gender non-conforming, not necessarily just all trans ones. Basically, any Autistic person who sees some of these social expectations of gender norms, as arbitrary, has questions about them. And many of us do get penalized for violating gender norms, whether we're trans or cis. And, you know, it's all about pathologizing, abnormality. And it's not even, you know, abnormality in the sense of rareness. Because it's really common for people to violate gender norms. Gender norms are so restrictive. They're not good for anybody. But we're seen as nonconformist, and we're punished for it. And that is the case, when we get strange looks for stimming in public. That's the case when we get arrested or subjected to police violence, for behaving, you know, different from neurotypicals in public. And that happens a lot too. And it's also the case when trans people have their rights restricted because they're Autistic. And so, every Autistic person and all of our allies, you know, in order to really stand with us, they have to be in favor of trans liberation, because they are inextricably linked.

Philip King-Lowe 

Right. Right. Yeah. And part of being part of, you know, what successful really means it really means connecting with others. And, you know, in whatever way that works for us that we feel can, you know, we can be advocating for ourselves and one another. We need to find those ways that we can be active in a sense of, you know, doing things to stop this violence that is occurring. You know, I made the statement in in, in April, it was, it was a commentary, I mean, you know, not only do we need better laws that limit firearms, but we also need actions to enrich the lives of these marginalized groups that are being victimized. We need things done that recognizes, you know, how many of us are living in poverty, or have inadequate employment, and inadequate mental health care that we really need. These are the things that these are, these also are acts of violence. And we need to recognize that for what it is, and we need to do our part to, encourage a change. And I like one of Samuel J. Levine's ideas that you can change the laws all you like, but until we change the cultural mindsets, of who Autistic people are, who queer people are, until we change that mindset, it gets a little bit more difficult to ask for legal, legal changes. So, it's also a cultural mindset don't you think?

Dr. Devon Price

Absolutely, yeah, because there are only there's only so far that legal gains can take us, you know, gay marriage can do certain things for certain segments of our community, for instance, but it doesn't change on its own queer youth homelessness, for example. And in much the same way, the embracement of certain kinds of Autistics under certain, you know, kind of narrow categories in the professional realm doesn't change the fact that most of us are unemployed and underemployed and facing discrimination everywhere that we go. And many of many of those forms of discrimination are codified into law to you know, Autistic people can immigrate to many countries, or can be barred from seeking out refugee status if we're victims of war, simply because we're Autistic countries can turn us away. And so it is, and that comes from a cultural idea that we are a drain on society. Right. Like that's right. Yeah. Yeah,

Philip King-Lowe

That's, that's ableism as oppression right there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Devin, thank you so much for being on today. Wow, we really talked about a lot of very important things. And I think we have really almost left no stone unturned here. You know. So, before I before we conclude, do you have any new books you are in the process of writing or any additional talks you're giving? Are you going to be appearing anywhere? And the upcoming?

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, yeah, right now I'm just finishing up edits on my third book, which is all about shame and internalized stigma. And this idea that we have in our culture that's really common, where individuals feel personally responsible for tackling systemic issues of oppression, and even systemic issues such as income inequality and climate change. While our political paradigm is so focused on what can I do as an individual, when we need so much more collective power, and so much more systemic change than that. So that book should hopefully be coming out in early 2024. I think. Other than that, I'm always writing regularly at devinprice.medium.com. I have a lot of different columns. I have an Autistic advice column where I just answer reader questions about kind of neuro diverse neurodiversity kind of adjacent topics. And just generally kind of talking about some of the social and political changes that I think we all need on there.

Philip King-Lowe 

Is that on the same page, the same page that you just mentioned?

Dr. Devon Price

Yeah, that's, that's on my medium.

Philip King-Lowe

Would you give us that address again, please?

Dr. Devon Price 

Yeah, it's Devon Price. D e v o n p r i c e.medium.com.

Philip King-Lowe 

Okay, good. And I will be adding that to todaysautisticmoment.com. It will be on our Adult Autism Resources Links page. So, my listeners can access that just go there. The link is there, click on the name and it will take you to where you want to go. Devon, thank you so much for being on today.

Dr. Devon Price

Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we were able to really just get into a lot of these densely interconnected topics here.

Philip King-Lowe 

Wonderful. Thank you.

Dr. Devon Price

Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

  Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board

All of these events with their links can be found at todaysautisticmoment.com/bulletinboard

Join The Autism Society of Minnesota for their Adult Coffee Club.  The next Coffee Clubs will be on Tuesday nights from 5pm to 7pm at Dogwood Coffee in St. Paul on June 6^th, June 20^th, July 11^th, July 25^th, August 8^th, and August 22^nd.  Coffee Club meetings will be at the Milkweed Café in Minneapolis on June 12^th, July 17^th, and August 14^th from 5pm to 7pm. Please RSVP at ausm.org.

Understanding Autism virtual classes will be offered by The Autism Society of Minnesota. These classes are perfect for Autistic individuals, caregivers, those who want to understand the basics of Autism and support Autistic people. Classes will be on June 12^th from 10am to 12noon. And on August 21^st from 2pm to 4pm.  Classes are free of charge, but you must register to attend.

The Autism Society of Minnesota is now accepting applications to be a presenter at The Autistic Community Summit in October 2023.  Go to the weblink on todaysautisticmoment.com/bulletinboard/ to read the information and apply before June 30^th. 

For more information including summer recreation and sensory friendly activities at The Autism Society of Minnesota go to ausm.org

Matthew the #ActuallyAutistic Coach has room in his Finding Your Autistic Self Group Coaching Groups. In the groups, participants learn about unmasking strategies, coping tools, burnout & post-burnout support and much more. Go to autisticcoach.com and click on Autism Groups for more information.

Today’s Autistic Moment is sponsored in part by Looking Forward Life Coaching.  Looking Forward turns stumbling blocks into stepping stones towards success.  Go to lookingforwardlc.org for more information.

Today’s Autistic Moment is here because of the generosity of the supporters and sponsors.  Please join the supporters by clicking on Support Today’s Autistic Moment on todaysautisticmoment.com.  If you work for a company and/or organization that supports Autistic Adults and the movement for Neurodiversity, I would love to have you sponsor ads on the show.

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Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.

May you have an Autistically Amazing day.