The Autistic Black Nonbinary Experience

Transcript

The Autistic Black Nonbinary Experience

June 16^th, 2024

Segment 1

Welcome everyone to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by an Autistic Adult. My name is Philip King-Lowe. I am the owner, producer, and host; and I am an Autistic Adult. Thank you so very much for listening.

Today’s Autistic Moment is a member of The Autistic Podcasters Network.

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This first segment of Today’s Autistic Moment is sponsored by The Autism Society of Minnesota, known as AuSM throughout Minnesota’s Autism community. As Minnesota’s First Autism Resource for more than 50 years, AuSM serves the whole state, the whole spectrum, for the whole life. Visit AuSM online at ausm.org. 

Thank you for joining me for The Autistic Black Nonbinary Experience. Oluwatobi Odugunwa will be my guest beginning in segment 2.  

Please visit todaysautisticmoment.com where you can listen to the podcast, get transcripts, program updates, and read the guest bios pages. Please visit the Future Shows Page to read the titles, guests, and descriptions of all shows coming up through July. The transcripts are sponsored by Minnesota Independence College & Community. There is a link provided to get access to a document form of the transcript without the purple-colored background so that you can print it without using up the ink on your printer. The written document has a font that is accessible for dyslexics. While visiting the website, please consider supporting the work of Today’s Autistic Moment with a financial donation.  Donations to Today’s Autistic Moment are not tax deductible. You can also purchase a 16oz drinking cup or a lapel pin at the Logo Shop.

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Today’s Autistic Moment offers our heartfelt sympathy to the family of 4-year-old Waeys Ali Mohamed who was Autistic and nonspeaking.  Last Sunday, Waeys wandered away from his parent’s home. Waeys loved being near water.  Waeys’ body was discovered 500 feet from his home due to an accidental drowning in Minnehaha Creek.  Sadly, Waeys is not the only Autistic child who has died because of accidental drowning.  During Labor Day weekend in 2021 a 2-year-old Autistic girl also died as a result of an accidental drowning.  Accidental drownings are among the leading cause of death for Autistic children.  Today’s Autistic Moment joins the many parents in calling for our Federal, State and Municipal governments to fund the construction of fences around our lakes, ponds, rivers and water ways to prevent accidental drownings.  The parents with Autistic children have approached government commissions and legislatures to fund building fences to protect Autistic children only to see that their pleas have fallen on deaf ears.  Today’s Autistic Moment encourages public policy advocates everywhere to push for protective fences to prevent the tragic drowning from occurring again.  This is a life-or-death situation. Now is the time to make this matter a priority.

Our second episode during Pride month is focusing on several intersectional communities that experience erasure. 

After I first came out in the years 2000/2001 and moved to Minneapolis, I had some experiences that I was completely unprepared for.  I started dating a guy, who later informed me that he is a racist. I immediately stopped dating him.

In June of 2001 I went to my first Twin Cities Pride Festival and marched in my first Pride Parade.  I was feeling so awesome. The very following July of 2001 began, I picked up a copy of Lavender Magazine, the LGBTQ local news periodical.  The front cover story was about Black Pride that would be taking place in July.  I was completely blown away.  I thought to myself, “How can it be that a community that faces discrimination with bumper stickers that read ‘Diversity is Our Strength’ discriminate against people of color?” 

Now, I admit that I was taught racism through the influence of my family, my educators and a small town where communities of color lived in certain areas because of how the dominant white majority marginalizes black people.  I had my days in school that I thought and said the most awful things towards people of color.  I bitterly regret all of that now.  As time has moved on from where I used to be, I have been faced with how much white supremacy has influenced my life. Since I came out, I have been allowing myself the space to unlearn as much as I can.  I still have a lot of unlearning in front of me. 

About 14 years ago, I began to realize just how much I did not know about transgender people.  So, I allowed myself to begin conversations with transgender people, who have patiently taught me about how much gender norms have kept me and society in bondage from recognizing the strength, persistence and the gifts that transgender people are sharing with society. 

Thirteen years ago, I was identified as Autistic.  It wasn’t until I started going to the LGBTQIA+ Adults with ASD support group at The Autism Society of Minnesota that I began to understand just how prevalent the overlap of Autistic people and LGBTQIA+ people is.

Then came the next Pride Twin Cities I attended in 2019, at which The Autism Society of Minnesota has an Escape Tent at the Pride Festival in Loring Park, Minnesota where Autistic LGBTQIA+ individuals can go in a cool tent, fidget, stim, lay down, do some coloring or do as little as they wish. 

Since I began hosting Today’s Autistic Moment in 2021, I have discovered how many Autistic Adults identify as nonbinary of mixed races, ages and sexual orientations.  The Autistic Adult community is made up of a diversity that is astounding. While the movement for Neurodiversity is far from perfect, we are working towards a culture that is accepting of our diversity, even while we are struggling with systemic racism, homophobia, genderphobia and more.  I have every reason to believe that the Autistic community is showing the world that the struggle with diversity can in fact lead us towards a greater appreciation for our differences among our similarities.

After our first commercial break, Oluwatobi Odugunwa who is a Black, Autistic Nonbinary person will join me to share their experiences and thoughts about how we can all work to better understand and include each other.

Commercial Break I

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Segment 2

Philip King-Lowe 

Oluwatobi Odugunwa. Welcome back to Today's Autistic Moment. It is great to see you again.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

Yes, thank you for having me.

Philip King-Lowe 

You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, um, one of the comments and actually factors about Pride month is that what started out as and has become a movement actually started with a riot at the Stonewall Inn in New York, and that riot was carried out and led by, um, queer people of color, and Latinos and, and that kind of thing. But since then, we have seen the queer movements whitewashed, and become commercialized. And you know, it's all about how many rainbow T shirts one can sell? How many? How many? Rainbow? I'm sorry, coffee mugs with rainbows and that sort of thing, just sort of, sort of become. Yeah. And so, we've also seen, and, and understood that, in addition, that, you know, the Autistic community plays a huge role, as well, do other Neurodivergence, because all of these communities intersect. And that's what I feel there needs to be more conversations about how we intersect. And over the last few years, we've been hearing a lot more people discover that they are gender nonbinary. We have been hearing a lot more about gender affirming care. And we've also been hearing a lot about that. So, to honor our intersection. I am so glad to have you here because you represent many of those intersections, and you're the perfect person to talk about how those intersections have affected your life, and most likely are affecting others. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, I want to begin with where can we begin to explore this topic of the Autistic Nonbinary Experience and how the intersectional communities are a part of everything that's we're talking about today? So, I'll let you start from there.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

Yes, no, I think there's a lot of interesting overlap between the Autistic and trans communities. And this, I think this conversation that we're having is very important right now just because of the recent, like legislative attacks against trans people. So, I work for the Autistic People of Color Fund. And a couple of years ago, we did a survey. We sent out a survey to our community members, we shared it on social media, and we were trying to grow out our advocacy arm, our advocacy and like a policy arm essentially. And we wanted to know, like, what issues were most pertinent and like significant for our communities at the moment. And so, in that survey, we also asked about, like demographic information to kind of get to find out, you know, who was responding. And 58% of our respondents identified, self-identified as trans people as being trans. And that was, it was really interesting to see. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised. Just because the leadership, the like, staffing at the Autistic People of Color Fund has been like, majority, trans, if not, like, 100%, trans, for like, the various like, iterations of like staff members that we've had. So, there's a very like, that Autistic people are more likely to, like identify as being trans than allistic people, which is a very, like, cool, very interesting fact. But yes, the, I think I would say right now. And I think, a good example of this, we saw this, with, I'm forgetting what state it was, but there was a state that like, as they were putting out their anti-trans bills, like specifically mentioned Autistic people. So, there's this. So, it seems that there's like an awareness that, like, governments and institutions have about the link between being Autistic and being trans. And in the same way, I think that like, one of the core, I think, when we're looking at, like ableism, and transphobia, like, one of the core things is that like, one of like, I think the core themes is the, the need to, like restrict people to certain kinds of like presentations and identity, certain ways of being than that, like some ways of being are like more normal, more acceptable, better, healthier, not deviant, than others. So, I really think that I think there's like, I think that there's like opportunity for like coalition building just because of how many Autistic trans people that there are. So, I, I do so I currently do mutual aid work for two organizations. That work, the overlap in my work has been very interesting to kind of see play out. As a lot of the trans folks in Nashville that like, are applying for like, our, like support tend to be Neurodivergent so there's very, like interesting connections between the Autistic and trans communities.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, and I'd like you to please give us some of your observations about what this means for communities of color.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them) 

Yeah. I would, I think that like as, so I'm a Black Autistic Nonbinary person. So, I think that in that sense, my like, view of this is maybe a little skewed just because, you know, marginalized folks like we tend to find each other. So, the like, large majority of like my closest friends, my chosen family, they are like Neurodivergent, often Autistic, gender non-conforming people. And so, these people are like, I would say that most of my close circle and like my, my close circle, and like who I find community with but also my like, commute my larger community of like, who I'm like kind of interacting with and like whose pads and mine are kind of crossing and personal life and also in like mutual aid work tends to be they tend to be like, gender non-conforming trans nonbinary people who are Neurodivergent who are Autistic. And I so my, my chosen family pod is my college chosen family pod is primarily made up of black Autistic people who I was one of the first people in that group to identify as Autistic. But slowly like over time, like we all kind of realized and so I think that I find it hard sometimes to distinguish between like what is a black Autistic experience versus like what is just like a black experience. Yeah, because for me, my like presentation of blackness, my leg in direction with like blackness and race. And the ways that my friends who are black and Autistic present who are also like largely, if not all, like trans and gender nonconforming, many of whom are like nonbinary. And so, these, like, part of the reasons that like these people, I was like drawn to them and like we were drawn to each other, were like these, like similarities that like we weren't able to name until, like, we like, realized that, like, we were all Neurodivergent. And like, that, like our interaction with gender like, does not fit into binary standards. Yeah, so I think that there is a, there's often with like, people who are like a mixture of like black and trans, nonbinary and Autistic. There's often an isolation and alienation that we can feel from our communities. And I would say that, like, it happens most specifically with it, I think it happens most specifically, or like, most significantly, with black communities and with like, LGBTQ communities. Yes. Just because for people that are like, that identify like people who fit into those labels, the Autism, the Neurodivergents tends to be one of like, the last labels that they are claiming most of most of the like, that we're finding about that we're learning about ourselves. So, like most of these people, myself included, are like late diagnosed people. So, like, learn that they were Autistic, and otherwise Neurodivergent in their teens, they're like 20s30s 40s. And so, I think with black communities, there is like, there's a little there's like some space for like, Neurodivergence. And that like, very like, that interacts very fluidly with black culture, like various black cultures, like there's, I think one example is stimming the way that like stemming shows up for like Autistic people, is often so tied to black culture, just because of how much like body movement and like body movement, how much like dancing, rhythm, all of those things are, like part of black culture, and like, very, like important parts and ways that like, we connect with other black people. And so, we're often able to get by, in our black communities until like, gender and sexuality start, like coming up, and there might be some tension there. And in the same way, like, like, once we, like discover or like, are questioning our like gender and sexuality is learning more about ourselves in that way. There's isolation from the LGBTQ community in general, as, as black people as people of color. Yes. And we also, and then it's like, I think that like realizing that you're trans often tends to be like one of those, like later realize things as well. And so that trans identity, even though the T is an LGBTQ, that trans identity can also kind of isolate you from like, the larger LGBTQ communities. So I think that I see a lot like, trans, I see a lot of like, trans Neurodivergent Autistic people like finding each other, I think that you're more likely, in my personal experience, and like, from my experience, interacting, not only with like, with my friends and family, but like, with the people, the community members that I've like, been, like I have interacted to interacted via mutual aid, you tend to like see more of us, like grouped up together, then you would see like one black Autistic trans person belonging in a group or like no one else is kind of, you know, sharing those identities. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Oh, and one last thing on this question. I think that part of the reason is that, like, our society doesn't encourage learning about these identities. It encourages, like, identify like, as allistic your neurotypical as, as like, kind of like by passing race as like a form of identity. Actually, I'll take that one back. And also like, you know, encourages and encourages people like to not question gender. And so, I think that when we find each other, we're more likely to realize who we are. Realize that we are Autistic realize that like we are trans we are nonbinary that we are gender non-conforming? And yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip King-Lowe 

No, that's okay. I'm glad you said all that. Um last episode, I talked, we talked with Daren Howard about The Autistic Bisexual Experience. And one of the things that we spoke about was that we really cannot advocate for Autistic and Neurodivergent people without also advocating for racial equality, and LGBTQ equality. And we really can't advocate for those two, without also, of course advocating for people with disabilities. All of them are actually intertwined. And one of the things that keeps happening is that each of those movements, I shouldn't say all of them, but there is the tension of trying to separate them from each other, when in fact, we are intersecting more and more all the time. What do you think that?

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

Yes, I absolutely agree with that. I Yes, I absolutely agree with that. I think on like a, on just a I don't know. I think that people tend to have more complex identities that like, then, like, I think that our society encourages us to, like find out about. I think, especially like in the U.S where like, we're very like, individualistic, but at the same time, like the culture is very, like, conformist. Yeah, so like, people are not encouraged to like, learn a lot about these parts of themselves. I'm having brain fog; would you mind repeating the question again?

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, I was really talking about how all of the communities intersect. And what's been happening is that there has been and not even without good reason. The idea of when we're fighting for, say, or working towards equality for Autistic people, we can't really, you know, we almost exclude people of color, we almost, you know, LGBTQ folks will exclude people of color and gender and all those things. And then the thing is, is that we are already intersecting. You know, one of the things that astounded me when I moved to the Twin Cities 24 years ago now and went to my first Pride in 2001. I was blown away that there was a separate pride called Black Pride. I mean, it was, yeah, that was separated from regular Twin Cities Pride. I thought, wow, that that, you know, and actually, the magazine articles that came out, were also saying, This is outrageous. I mean, we're all part of each other. But for some reason, we can't bring these two together without one marginalizing the other. When in fact, again, if we are not recognizing race, is part of LGBTQIA+ advocacy. And Neurodivergent advocacy is not part of that. And, you know, we have economic inequality and all those, we're all intertwined, we all intersect. So that intersection is already happening. It's a matter of us working together, so that we can address all issues without saying that one is completely separated from the other. Especially where I I've learned to see over the past these past years is that Autistic people in general, regardless of what their gender is at birth, or what even their sexual orientation necessarily is, they we are all in one way or another gender nonconforming. So go ahead with that.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them) 

Yeah. I think I think the first thing that I'll start with is I let I think I think that it's for like, discussions about like, different like, let me pause and like collect myself. Sure. I think that it's important that there are spaces for people with, like, specific identities, and I think that it is equally important that there are like, spaces that like, include people of a variety of identities, spaces that like, acknowledge and like respect, and like, are inclusive of, and that like center around those like very like those differences essentially. So, I think that it's, I think, because of like the society that we live in where like all of these biases exist, and also even like shifting away from like, the systemic side, like sometimes it's just like, nice to like, talk to someone who has a similar experience. And like, there's a lot that you can make, gain from like discussing what your lived experience with this person is maybe like, there's a solution, or like there's, you know, the community or like, you can like commiserate, or you can like laugh about something together. I think that, like, it's important that there are like spaces that are geared towards specific people. And I also think that, like we need to, and I think that like, in the past, maybe in the past, like couple of decades, like more of those spaces have been coming, like coming up, like more of those days, I think spaces like that are, like, easier to find now than they would have been 30 years ago. And what I think that like, one thing that we're not doing as much of though, is like coalition building, and like community. I think, the, I think that like, because of how much overlap there is, in the people who identify as, like being an Autistic and, and black and like being of color. I think that like, it's like, because of the existence of people like me, that like that coalition building is like necessary, but I think that even when, like, let's say black trans Autistic people like did not exist, which like, that would that is not our role. I think that they're like, the, like you were saying, like the issues that like, are the cause of like ableism and like racism, and transphobia, and homophobia, those things are all connected. And, and I feel like in our very like capitalist society where like, money is kind of like dominant and like money like rules. Like it's, it's critical, it is like necessary, I think that like, we cannot make strides as like as silos. I think that like, there needs to be more integration of like, anti-racist work with like, gender inclusive. Work with like binary breaking work with like, Neurodiversity, like the Neurodiversity movement, with, like, anti-ableism movements. Like, there's just, I think that there's like, there's no reason for us to be separate. And, well, there is no reason for us to be separate all the time. And there are like, many, many important reasons that like, we come together. And I think one reason outside of all of that is like healing. The impact of that, like living in an oppressive society has like kind of taken a toll on us. We're told to like to humanize ourselves, and to do dehumanize our neighbors. And I think that like coming together like a like a cis gender, like cisgender, heterosexual like black man, I think it's important to be in a space with like, a trans Autistic like white woman. I think that with like a, you know, a Latina, Autistic, like, lesbian, you're like, I think that it's like important for us to like, I think that like, finding community with people who are different from different from us, not necessarily identifying as a specific identity, but identifying with that specific identity. And seeing, like, the ways that like, our experiences are like, created and like curated by the same forces, I think is important to like, recognizing, like the power and like beauty and like divinity that we all hold, like within ourselves, and also like, tearing down the systems that like continue to keep us marginalized.

After this next commercial break, Oluwatobi will continue our conversation by helping us be engaged in conversations about gender and racial diversity, by talking about what we have in common in addition to what our differences are. 

Commercial Break II

Public Service Announcement

The 4^th of July is coming up in a few weeks.  July 4^th is not the best day for many Neurodivergent people and those with PTSD because of the fireworks.  The sound of fireworks can be a terrible trigger for the auditory sensory processing needs of many Autistics.  If you are affected by the sound of fireworks wear your noise cancelling headphones to decrease the volume of the fireworks noise, and/or find a safe space where you can fidget or do something to distract you.  If you are a caregiver of an Autistic person of any age who is affected by such sounds, please do not make them attend the fireworks as the brightness of the lights and the loud noise from them can have serious repercussions.  Let them wear noise cancelling headphones without saying negative things to your Autistic individual who react to those sounds.  They are not pretending, nor do they need to be made to feel that they are doing anything wrong.

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

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Segment 3

Philip King-Lowe

Let's change to my second question, which is, how can we get our Autistic and intersectional communities engaged in these conversations and engaged to recognize each other within the same movement, while giving each community of course, the opportunity to gather with those who best understand them? And work on ways to move us closer together, if you will. Yeah. And so and so. I again, want to kind of mention that one of the ways we can get engaged, is to learn about each other be open to learning about each other. And one of the things I constantly hear, and I've mentioned this before with Precious Leslie and others, it's hard to have conversations about race partially because of the marginalization of, of different races. So that when, like someone like me, who is white privileged male and all that speaks about it, then someone reminds me of the fact that I do come from a white supremacist culture. And I totally admit that and so therefore, you know, within that, white supremacy comes, you know, "the black community needs me in order to thrive or survive" when that's actually white supremacy talking through me. And so, what I say is probably going to hit a lot of trauma points for people of color. And therefore, it's going to be upsetting to people of color. So therefore, they're going to find it difficult to have conversations with me. And I've been pointing out for a long time that the best way to engage is to listen to each other's stories and to enter into dialogue with them. And so, for example, Autistic people, regardless of their racial background, we can at least talk with each other about our Neurodivergence, and so on and so forth. But we're still having trouble coming together to talk together with each other, and really make a difference. So, I just like you to comment on some of that. And what would you add to what I've said?

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

Yeah. So, I think the first thing that I can think of, like the first question that you asked, I would say, start starting with similarities. This can, because like identities, like, inherently like point out difference, and so finding ways that like, we can connect with people seeing like, what are some things that like we have in common, whether that's like, identity based, or like cultural, like, based, and I'm thinking like cultural and like, like disabled folks, more specifically, like communities of disabled folks who have like, specific cultures, but I think that even on like a larger scale, like, there are things they're like, kind of like jokes or like, experiences that like, you know, that we have in similar that I think, contribute to like, a, a form of culture for like disabled people at large. But I think that like finding similarities and like having that be like the, like, first kind of like touchstone. And so, like these similarities, I think that like, it can be easier to point out these similarities. I think that when pointing out these similarities, I think it's critical, regardless of like, what the space is like. Or maybe I'm saying this as, like someone who likes organizes, and someone who like is involved with like advocacy and activism, I think it's important to, like, connect, like the, the systems that we live in. And perhaps like, you might not be able to talk about, like, mass incarceration and like, how that affects disabled people and like black people, maybe that's like, maybe you’re like coffee shop hour is like, not the space for that. But I think that there are ways to like talk about how black communities, black people, and like Autistic people are, like other in ways that like can bring that can be like, okay, here, we have something in common. How can we like, learn to like, love each other's differences and like, be in community together with our differences, and like, acknowledging those differences, and like honoring those different and I think that social, like social interactions are a really great place for that. So like, like discussions, community, like, perhaps like, maybe like a topic, like maybe anime or video games, or like chess, or like some things that like, are something that like, the groups that you're trying to bring together, like, they enjoy that they mutually enjoy, and then bringing them together to like, play chess or to play video games or to like, watch a certain show, that can be like, a like a, that, like commonality now can also serve as a reference point to, like, connect these groups together, learn to humanize each other and like, like, essentially enlarge, and who we view as like part of our community. Yeah. Even as we have, you know, like more like intimate groups that like share specific identities.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, um, you know, one of the, the purposes of this particular show, can you talk about how the issues of your race, you’re Autistic, and your experience as a nonbinary person? What are some experiences that you yourself have had? It can help a lot of us engage in understanding where the intersectionality is and isn't. And it can you talk about some of your experiences and how those have affected you?

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them) 

Yes. I think that one thing that I can I also okay, one, I think one, it's three sets of different experiences. That like, kind of sent her like my blackness, my, like, my Autistic Ness, my being Autistic and also my transness. But I think that like one of those things is like, I think, like, the large theme would be bodily autonomy. But I think on the smaller scale, trans like on like a more like specific scale, trans people are, like told that, like, we don't know what our bodies are, that like, we are not the experts on our bodies. That like, we just need to, like, do the things that we are told to do wear the clothes that we're told to wear, like, move a certain way, like walk a certain way, speak a certain way, and then like, not interact with our bodies and our genders the way that we want to. And we're told that that like, that, we don't need to do that. And I think and that, like, we're very much like, gaslit. And like, I think for a lot of people, especially if you don't have like, trans community around you or you don't have any like, like healthy like role models, maybe like influencers or celebrities, or like community leaders that are trans like it might take longer for you to like, realize that you're trans because you're constantly being like, gas lit to like, toned down. Whenever like your body is like, whatever like your mind, your body's telling you whom I might want to explore this thing, this thing that like does not conform to the gender that I was assigned at birth. And I think in that way, that same thing like happens to me as like an Autistic person where I'm told that like, so I, I was late diagnosed, self-late self-diagnosed. And I think for a long time I've had like particularities concerning like eating, like, what kind of foods I want to eat, how fast I'm eating. And it wasn't until years after, like realizing I was Autistic, that I realized that like, these things that I've always been, like, nitpicked on. And like the things that I've always like, forced to, like, I've forced myself to, like, eat in a certain way, or like to eat certain foods, or to like do to, like, hug certain people or like being in social situations. That made me uncomfortable, but I thought that, you know, this is a thing people did. So, I have to do this thing. And I think with like, blackness, I think that like, the way like black people talk like, different like, like African American English, for example, Black English is all over the world. The way that like, the way that like we like the kind of food that we make, actually, maybe scratch the food. Oh, I think one example that like connects to like, the trans and Autistic experiences that I've named, is like, being in a doctor's office, there's like a power dynamic, where like, the doctor is often like a white person. And also like, they are like, you know, supposedly, like the authority on health and on like, your body. And so, I know, like, I personally is a black person who was like, also, like, chronically ill and like, disabled in like other ways. There's always like it, even though I've been like, I see doctors all the time. And I've been seeing them all the time for like, over a decade now. Because I have a lot of specialists. I still sometimes feel that like; I feel sometimes like underplay like my own pain. Because I like our I will like put up with like, uncomfortable things. Like for example, I'm hard to stick, I'm hard to like pull blood from. And so, I, it wasn't until like I had my first appointment with a phlebotomist who was like, no, like, you should not be sticking somebody four times, like you should not be like, you know, doing certain things. But I think that like, there are ways that like, agency is stripped away from black people, Autistic people and trans people. And I see that like, as one of one theme that I can kind of raise up and how similarities between like my various identities.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, I thank you for that. Our medical experiences is something I could do an entire show about. Sometime I probably will. Yeah, you and I have had that chat before.

My last question is, let's talk about empowering them. And empowerment, is helping to give the tools to advocate and have it and also having the tools to become proactive. You know, we can sit here and talk, and that's part of our being proactive. Proactive, can come in many forms, and each Autistic person has their way of being proactive. And that needs to be respected. But when we talk about empowerment, I'm talking about empowerment to recognize in ourselves. Some of the baggage we've carried from wherever we've come from. Yes. That sort of thing. You know, a few months ago, when Nigel Rising and I were having our conversation, I pointed out what's happening with the discussion about gender right now. I'm gonna repeat a little bit of that, and I want my audience to hear me say I do not agree with them, their opinions or their insistence about keeping back our conversations about nonbinary folks and trans folks here. But the problem that exists is, as a society, we have built our expectations, around two genders. We have created this society based on whether it's your religion, or your social experiences, your understanding of right and wrong, and those can come from all sorts of situations. But gender binary is something that society has built our foundations on. We have built our foundations that when a female is born, what that female is going to do when they grow up. What that girl woman is going to do with their life. And the same thing with males. And so, the, as we're discussing gender equality, and that sort of thing, the foundations that people have set their lives upon, are shaking and falling apart. Now, that's a good reason to be confused, and that sort of thing. It is not a good reason to be violent towards people who are different from ourselves. However, the point being that it's difficult, because those foundations that we once created our understanding of society. They were flawed to begin with. You know, how, like when you're going to be going to build a house or, or work on a house, you know, someone will come along and say, that foundation isn't working because of how it was built. And so, we need to rebuild that foundation. Well, we're going through that process now, when we talk about gender equality and gender diversity. We are heavily engaged in that conversation. And we know that people's foundations are proving to be less stable than we then they thought they were. And so, the tendency is to is to silence the debate and say, Oh, no, there's only one, there's only two genders, male or female. And that's basically where the resistance is coming from. When we talk about engaging, we need to talk engage, by talking about more than one gender, more than one race. More than one Neurodiversity here. And so, empowerment comes from conversations listening, and realizing what's happening. So, I repeat for those who may be feeling a little triggered here. I do not endorse their way of thinking I'm saying, I see where their struggle is coming from. In order to do the work of empowerment, we need to meet them where they are a little bit, not to leave them there, but to help them understand there's more to that foundation than just what they've been told it is. So go ahead Oluwatobi. Have fun with that.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them) 

No, I was I was literally gonna be like your spit and bars with these questions like these like that. Oh, yeah, that is a very big, very heavy question. And I think more people need to be asking that and like doing work, answer it, you know, during what to like, follow up, but I absolutely I agree with like what you were saying, like, I think that I think that it's important for people who are like committed to change, to not just like, be doing what like doing good change, but also like, understanding where the people who are like understanding where the people who are like, like marginalizing you were like, where they're coming from, like, so that you can protect yourself. I think primarily, so you can protect yourself. And then if you're ever in a place, like where you can do work to, like, change that to, like, make an impact, then like, you're aware enough to like, know what, like, what steps to take. And I would say that, like, I would say, for addressing, folks, I'll start with saying that, like, I've mentioned this to like, some friends and some colleagues that like, it pains, my heart sometimes to know that there are trans people that are gay, lesbian, bisexual people, queer people, who will never know that they fit into this, like, never know that that identity describes them never, like learn the fullness of themselves of their identities. And I'm not like, I'm not drawing a line specifically to like, oppressors like or like, you know, like, racist or not, I guess not racist, or like transphobes or like, you know, allistic people, but I am saying that, like, the system that we were built in, was meant to make people act in these ways. And so like, Yeah, I think acknowledging that is important. And I think I would say that, like, my response to your question is that I think for those people who are still like drinking the, like the Kool Aid, who are still like, partaking of the sauce, I think the first thing that I would ask them is the like, the box that like you have, like built yourself and like your conception of gender around? Does it make you happy? Are there things that like, it limits you from doing? Are there things that like, you might enjoy it, like, you're free to try or feel like you cannot try because of what society says a woman or a man has to act like? You know, like, what are some things that are limiting you, and if you are fully, fully, fully, entirely happy in your gender role, like you are like living the life, like the best life possible, you know, like the life of your dreams, a life where like, you feel that all of you is respected and like known and loved. Can you understand that like, that might not be the case for other people? Like, it's good that this dress fits you. But like for it to fit me, we would have to be adjusted this dress like the you might have to add some panels into this dress a zipper maybe. So, I think that is kind of the like, approach. Because I identify as a, I'm an abolitionist, I believe that like, I believe that the world that we live in right now is a world that harms a lot of people, and I want to like contribute to building a world that where everyone is taken care of.

The world that I am trying to build that like organizers are like people are trying to build as the world where like everyone is taken care of. And so, I think that it is very difficult. Like I acknowledge that I am not saying that it's easy for me, as someone like who like has gotten to a point where like, I fully believe in that. It is difficult to like hold that belief when like there are people like spitting in your face or like calling you a slur or like firing you from your job. And I'm not saying we need to like necessarily bring those people into our circles. But I think that like for the people that we can I think it's important to do that work. And I also think that it's important to realize that like, while we may not have called people slurs, or like you know, like, or like, you know, written and like passed legislation that like you know, that criminalizes being trans I think that we can all admit it that we grew up in, like there are harmful believes that like we held and there are harmful beliefs that we are holding right now. Things that we're hopefully working on, but like, you know, like, you know, everyone, everyone is growing, everyone is growing together. And I think that, like, I think that it's important that like, as we fight for our humanity to be recognized that we like don't like, I think that it's important to be like, you know, all cops are bastards, like, you know, like, it's important to, like, recognize all that, you know, institutions play. But I also think that that, like, I think that we lose a part of ourselves. If we like, I think that we can lose a part of ourselves if, like, if somewhere in the back of our mind, there isn't something saying that like, those people like need healing, too. They need like, freedom and liberation, too. And, yeah, yeah, so I definitely like I Yeah, I'm definitely with you on that one.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, I think it goes with what Dr. Nick Walker says when she talks about, we can choose to liberate ourselves from these systems of oppression and being oppressed. You know, that's what the queer movement is about. What Neuroqueer movement is about, then the Neurodiversity Paradigm is about hat. You know, it's got everything to do with how things how we see things and how we understand things. And recognizing as we go along, that not everything that we've held on to was necessarily good that we hanged on to it. That sort of thing.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

Knowing what knowing what to let go of knowing what to be curious about knowing what dig deeper into. I think another thing that I'll say to people like on both sides of the issue, both sides of like the humanity question is like dig deeper like what makes you so uncomfortable? And like what is something that like would free everyone if you could get to that point. Right. I think that yeah, the focus on like collective liberation, collective happiness, collective collectivism, you know, as important.

After this final commercial break, Oluwatobi will share with us what Autistic Pride means for them followed by Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board.

Commercial Break III

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Future Shows

The third annual Summer of Self-Care Series (SOSS) begins on July 7^th with Self-Care: Getting Enough Rest.  Becca Lory Hector joins me to talk about the importance of each Autistic person to get the rest we need with self-awareness and setting boundaries.  Becca will talk about July as Disability Pride month and her book: Always Bring your Sunglasses: And Other Stories from a Life of Sensory and Social Invalidation.

Dr. Devon Price will join me on July 21^st for Self-Care: Surviving Disheartening Rhetoric.  Disheartening rhetoric often targets Autistic Adults and our intersectional communities especially during election years.  Dr. Devon Price will join me to talk about how disheartening rhetoric harms us and what we can do to take care of ourselves in these trying times. 

Check out to the Future Shows Page on todaysautisticmoment.com for all updates about shows coming up.

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

Segment 4

Philip King-Lowe 

Before we finish up this conversation, I also want to talk about recognizing Autistic Pride and that and that sort of thing, so and we know that Autistic Pride Day is coming up this coming Tuesday the 18th and I've been making my argument that June should also be Autistic Pride Month because I think we're all in this together and we should be all in this together. So, I'll leave that alone for the moment but what does Autistic Pride mean for you?

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

I think that Autistic pride is like, knowing that like, the very specific, the very Autistic things about myself are, are good, all right, they're neutral. They are, but they are natural parts of me that deserve to be honored and respected and celebrated. Yeah, I also, I did not know that June 18th was Autistic Pride Day. So, I, I look forward to celebrating that. But I think that Pride as any, like, pride for any, like marginalized group is about realizing that the things that like you've been demonized for or alienated for that those things are, they're good, actually. But they're good. And that, like, you should be proud to, like, I'm proud to be Autistic, I'm proud to be lesbian, you know?

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah. And getting to that point, can, you know, takes time and you need to do it in your own time, your own space in your own way. So, you leave room for that. And we know that Autistic Pride is difficult when you've lost another job, or you had another relationship that just didn't work out. We know that it can be so difficult to believe that you are more than what people are saying that you are. And so, you know, I loved your unmasking to yourself. Let it be known and I intend to make a podcast show out of that one. I think that's, that's very much worthwhile. But you know,

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them)

If I could, if I could add one last thing. I think it's also like important to recognize that like that, like we, that we live in systems that the systems like the unemployment that like we're facing the like unhappiness, the alienation is all intentional by a system that was built for Neurotypical people. It is not coincidence, and it is not. It is not because you are Autistic that like, it is not because we are Autistic, that we experienced these things. It's because the world was not built for Autistic people. And I think that like, knowing that that like the burden of that is not on you like it is not your responsibility, but that you have a responsibility to yourself and loving yourself to take care of yourself to respect yourself.

Philip King-Lowe 

Yeah, exactly. I agree. I agree. That was very well said. Well, Oluwatobi Odugunwa I want to thank you so much for being here today. And, you know, you always give us so much to think about and to think about. And so, thank you for being here today.

Oluwatobi Odugunwa (they/them) 

Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy our conversations.

Philip King-Lowe 

I do too.

Transcribed by https://otter.a

Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board

All of these events and many others with their links can be found at todaysautisticmoment.com/bulletinboard.

Understanding Autism virtual classes will be offered by The Autism Society of Minnesota. These classes are perfect for Autistic individuals, caregivers, those who want to understand the basics of Autism and support Autistic people. Classes will be on July 15^th at 10am. August 12^th at 6pm. September 9^th at 2pm. November 11^th at 10am. December 9^th at 6pm. Classes are free of charge, but you must register to attend.

Applications are now being accepted by The Autism Society of Minnesota to be a speaker at the Autistic Community Summit this upcoming Fall. Speakers are needed for topics such as how Autistics can be of service in community. Finding affirming providers. The Experiences of multiply Neurodivergent people.  Autistic led initiatives. Masking.  Navigating services and government programs. Employment. Intersectionality. Managing emotions, especially anger. The spoon theory. Applications are due by August 2^nd. Go to ausm.org. Click on the menu option Events, then Autistic Community Summit for more information and apply.  If you have any questions, send an email to zjames@ausm.org.

Go to ausm.org to get more information about these and other social and educational events, counseling services and support groups at The Autism Society of Minnesota.

MNeurodivergent is a social club rooted in a vision of bringing Neurodivergent Minnesotans together to build meaningful connections.  Its core principle is to foster an environment where all are treated with dignity and respect regardless of ability or preferences. Go to the bulletin board at todaysautisticmoment.com and click on the Meet Up link to become a member and attend their events.

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Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.

May you have an Autistically Amazing day.