The Autistic Jewish Experience

Transcript

The Autistic Jewish Experience

December 8th, 2024

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The Autistic Culture is made up of many intersectional identities.  On this episode of Today’s Autistic Moment, I will be talking with Matthew Lawrence.  Matthew is known as the #ActuallyAutistic Coach who works with Autistic individuals and entrepreneurs to embrace their authentic Autistic selves.  Matthew is Autistic and Jewish and is going to share with us how these cultural identities meet and challenge each other.  Matthew will also share with us how to work with sensory rich environments and manage holiday gatherings.  Join us as we talk together on this episode of Today’s Autistic Moment.

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After this first commercial break in segment 2 Matthew Lawrence will join me to talk about The Autistic Jewish Experience,

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Segment 2

Philip King-Lowe  

Matthew Lawrence, welcome back to Today's Autistic Moment. I'm always happy to greet you so, welcome.

Matthew Lawrence 

Thanks for having me. Philip.

Philip King-Lowe   

We're going to be talking about the Autistic Jewish experience, and I have to say you're going to be teaching me a lot of things that I'm not as familiar with as I'd like to be. So, this is going to be a major educational and interesting conversation. So let me just get down to business. And where can we begin to explore The Autistic Jewish experience? And let's especially talk about how being Autistic and Jewish is part of our, of course, intersectional communities. So go ahead. Matthew.

Matthew Lawrence 

I think talking about the Autistic Jewish Experience is like talking about lots of different Autistic experiences, right? Autism is, of course, going to look different, and Autistic people are going to look different, not just based on who they are, where they're from, but the kind of cultural milieu and the socio-religious sort of things that people grow up. And you know, the Jewish community is a very, very large community. Not so, not so large a number of people. There's estimated to be around 14 million Jewish people in the world. So quite small a number, but quite diverse in terms of where in the world Jewish people live the different types of religious practices. Whether you know, there's more kind of Orthodox Jews who live in a certain socio religious milieu, cultural milieu, there's those who are secular, there are those who are more traditional, but not Orthodox, and are more acculturated. So, it's quite diverse. And you know, you meet one Jewish person, you've met one Jewish person, doesn't necessarily mean there's anything in common, just like if you meet one Autistic person, you meet one Autistic person, but it is a distinct culture. A distinct way of growing up. Distinct community in which certain Autistic traits may look different, and Autism presents differently in Jewish people. Just like Autism presents differently in all sorts of people based on that background in which they grow up, which in certain contexts, can make it harder to identify Autistic people in the Jewish community, and there's a lot more room for acceptance in some Jewish communities, but also a much higher level of stigma. It's also super interesting in some research that's been done is that actually Autistic people are more prevalent in the Jewish community than in the non-Jewish world, right? Well, the number that we always use is 3% of the population is seen as Autistic, and the Jewish population is actually up to 7%. So much higher rate of Autistic people in the population, which we can certainly see like in, you know, in like, day to day life. And actually, what I would even argue is that a lot of Jewish culture is actually super Autistically coded, which maybe we'll get into later. But it's a unique experience, and it also, I think there's a lot of universal things that one who even isn't Jewish can learn from the Autistic Jewish experience.

Philip King-Lowe   

Right. Let's also just clarify for our Autistic audience, that this is a conversation about culture, and though we may talk about the Jewish religion in one way or another, we are in no way, uh, looking to impose any religious beliefs on any one particular group of people. So, this is more or less a generalized conversation regarding Autistics who are also Jewish. So, let's just make sure we state that very clearly so that we don't suggest proselytization here.

Matthew Lawrence 

Sure, though I would like to really point out this is a really important thing about Jewish culture. Judaism doesn't proselytize, so that actually is never going to be a problem. It's actually against Judaism to proselytize, and actually it's a state. I say that because it's actually something often that I bring up my work, and people often accuse me and other Jewish people who talk about that as proselytizing, though, that actually that's a Christian concept that then gets kind of thrown onto to Jewish people, and to actually separate the Jewish religion and Jewish culture actually can be quite difficult, because Judaism as such, isn't a religion in the way that we think of Buddhism or Christianity or Islam as a religion. But Judaism is what we call kind of this. It's its own kind of civilization which the culture and the religion kind of mix together. So, we're gonna keep it on the cultural aspects, but it is. It's not possible, actually to distinguish them. Again, this concept of Judaism as religion is also something that's kind of been an outside imposition onto what Jewish civilization is from Christian civilization, Christian people and Jews living amongst Christian nations. They, oh, that's the religion Judaism is the religion of the Jews, so to speak, right?

Philip King-Lowe   

Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about, you know, what are some topics that we need to talk about with how being Jewish and Autistic, they kind of interplay with each other. So, let's talk about that a little more.

Matthew Lawrence 

Oh, my favorite kind of thing when it comes to Autism and Jewish culture, right? So Jewish education is traditionally not done in the same way that we think of in our kind of general Anglo, Christian Anglo, generalized education. Where we have a teacher who sits up at the front of the room, a bunch of students sitting at desks in front of them. Teacher lectures, maybe students ask questions, right? And the bell rings and you leave. So Jewish education is actually done in a different way. There's still a teacher at the head of the school, at the head of the class, but you actually learn in pairs, and it's actually involves arguing and pointing out where you see logical flaws, and what other somebody else's interpretation of the text is, and it's called, Chevruta which literally means like kind of in connection or friendship, right? So, you and I would be studying a text together under the teacher's supervision. We would read the text. I would say what I think it means, you would say what you think it means, and we might debate, right? And the idea of this is one so like, it's good to argue, it's good to be "pedantic." It's good to even interrupt somebody's thought in some ways, right? Which is not great good for some Autistic people, not so great for other Autistic people. But you're meant to challenge the ideas, right? And the reason that we do this is one because when you have to defend your ideas, you're going to have a more specific and a more kind of sharp way of looking at it. But beyond that, it's also teaching you empathy for others, right to empathize with other people's viewpoints, to empathize with how someone else is thinking. Because you know, when you're sitting with down one person to one person, it's very different than when it's from afar. And I always found this to be in many ways, it has the potential of being extremely not conducive for an Autistic person, but in other ways that you can see maybe how that could be. Do you see how that might actually be a really affirming way to learn? Growing up, I always found that to be a really, you know, until a certain age, right? Like, you know, you're actually praised for learning, you’re praised for having specialized knowledge, your praised for like, bringing up a point which might be a "hot take", and I find that it'd be a really affirming thing. And I always like to in my own teaching. I'm also I I'm a teacher of Jewish texts. I'm a Rabbinical student. I lead a Neuro- affirming, queer affirming, disability affirming, Jewish spiritual community, a synagogue, and we like to teach this way, right? That like through this dialectic, and right? Anybody's ever been to any of my kind of coaching courses or workshops, right? We do it in a similar way. We learn through debate. We learn through expressing ourselves. We learn through questioning, right? Which I think can be extremely valuable and useful tools for an Autistic person, learning where you know the typical way of doing things, just kind of listening and not asking questions doesn't really work for us.

Philip King-Lowe  

Let's talk about how Autistic Jews navigate faith community and self-advocacy within both the Jewish and Neurodivergent spaces.

Matthew Lawrence 

So, I mean the Jewish community, like most communities, I'm not going to sit here and pretend to say that it's the most affirming place. Jewish people still live in a greater, larger society. Our greater, larger society is ableist and autist-a-phobic. Therefore, most Jewish communities are indeed the same right? Just as most communities, spiritual communities, are homophobic and queer phobic, transphobic, racist. That exists, right? And we'll always find ones which are not, but on a whole, most are and it's something that we struggle with and ableism in the Jewish community, whether that's in synagogue spaces, whether that's in community spaces that aren't of a religious nature and just kind of cultural spaces that exists not because it's Jewish, but because they're part of a greater society which is ableist and actually promotes and accepts ableism, and the Jewish community has a lot to do in that too, to fix and to learn.

Philip King-Lowe   

So how do you advocate for yourself in those spaces?

Matthew Lawrence 

Well, it's challenging, right? Because and that, I would say, is not a uniquely Jewish thing, right? Any kind of space, people are going to assume that they're doing the right thing and that they're being good people while doing it right? And people don't love when you come to them and you tell them you're doing something wrong, which is oppressive to me, right? In Hebrew, in Biblical Hebrew, and Judaism, we have this concept, which is called tochacha T C H A, C H A, and tochacha can literally be translated as "loving rebuke", right? Which is not rebuke for the sake of embarrassing somebody, not for the sake of hurting them, not for the sake of being mean, but because I love you and respect you. I need you to know that what you're doing is wrong. So, I approach every kind of ablest issue I see in the communities of which I'm a part, is that I go into Jewish communities, whether they're religious communities or cultural communities, and to talk about ableism and train people in how to be more affirming. And it always has to come from this concept of tochacha. It's coming from we there are disabled people in your community. We are not being affirmed. We are not being accommodated, and in a lot of instances, we don't even have basic access. That is wrong. It's morally wrong. You are not stepping up to it. You have to step up to it. And very often, people are going to push back and say, no, we are doing it. Oh, you know this one disabled person, they say we're doing a great job, right? And you have to get you have to be brave to be able to say, No, it's not enough.

Philip King-Lowe   

And like most spaces, it's one of those things that we have to exercise both an amount of patience, but also to advocate for the for the needs we may have that are not necessarily being met. And a lot, sometimes it's unconscious bias. It's unintentional harm because of the things they may not know, nor might they not know to ask. But the point is, is that, you know, even in my own Episcopal communities, I mean, we have to basically tell them, try to tell them why this is not working, and then we have to be prepared to tell them why. And we also have to be prepared that some things are going to fall on deaf fears, because I think it's fair to say, nobody likes to be told that they have an unconscious bias that just doesn't go well. But, you know, and as always, we have to be patient but insistent. That's sort of the way I think of it.

Matthew Lawrence  

Definitely. And, you know, I remember once I went into a synagogue, and they wanted, and they wanted to know what they could do better. Right. And I told them all the things that they were doing wrong, and they said, and one of the people on the board of this synagogue looked at me and said, well, Matthew, you're making me feel bad and that I'm a horrible person. I don't want to feel like a horrible person. And I said, you're not a horrible person because you didn't know. Now you're knowing. And the thing to do is to say, I understand. I've heard you. How can we make it better? Because now you do know, and if you're gonna now say that I'm a bad person because I've made you feel bad, that is actually the essence of ableism, right?

Philip King-Lowe 

Let's discuss some of how some of these Jewish traditions, texts and rituals, can be interpreted through an Autistic lens.

Matthew Lawrence 

I'm really glad that you asked me that gives a good a get a good plug for so I'm working on a book with my friend and colleague, Rabbinate Liz Shane, who's a Rabbi in New York, who's also Autistic. We're actually working on a book now called Neurodivergent Torah, which is a collection of essays by us and some other contributors, which is exactly that looking at Jewish texts through a Neurodivergent lens. So, in our case, Autistic lenses. And I think it's for me, it's actually the thing that got me very excited about my textual tradition. Because you know, for you never learn how to read Jewish Text through an Autistic lens. You look at them through the eyes of tradition, whatever that means, what's cool is that in Jewish tradition you have lots of different opinions and views. And you know, I always laugh when people ask me, What does Judaism say about x? What does Judaism say about Y? Judaism doesn't say anything about X or Y. The whole point of Judaism is that it's interpretive, and there are, and it holds many different opinions and views to be valid, some of which are contradictory each other, and that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. There are a few kinds of texts that I really enjoy reading through an Autistic lens, so maybe I'll, I'll share one that maybe everybody who's familiar with the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament, might be familiar with but looking at the prophet Jeremiah, right? I read the prophet Jeremiah as an Autistic person. Indeed, I look at a lot of the prophets as Autistic people. These are people filled with righteous indignation. Who cannot sit back when things are going the wrong way. When who are who are feeling extremely hurt, really viscerally hurt, at injustice, at people not hearing them, right? There are so many quotes from Jeremiah and some of the other prophets, of them speaking, telling people what's happening, and people just not hearing them, and them describing what I would I often read as an Autistic meltdown. And I mean, may I read just like maybe a few kinds of quotes that maybe we could read through an Autistic lens? Go ahead.  If I look at Jeremiah, right, just even the first thing he ever says, "They will attack you, but they will not overcome you," right? When you come to speak, right? I just hear you. Know. Further on he goes "my suffering, my suffering the walls of my heart, my heart moans within me, I cannot be silent. Disaster overtakes. Disaster for all the land has been ravaged. Suddenly, my tents have been ravaged. In a moment, my cloths, how long must I see standards and hear the blare of horns? For my people are stupid, and they give me no heed." What Autistic person can't, can't, can't relate to that? He goes on to say, "to whom shall I speak, giving warning that they may hear. Their ears are blocked. They cannot listen." I cannot hold it in, right? I just hear an Autistic person. But what's good about these Autistic lenses is that you can also read characters who aren't necessarily Autistic, right? We don't have to diagnose people. I love reading Moses as an Autistic person. Whether or not he is not relevant, right? Moses comes to God, or God comes to Moses and tells Moses you're going to go out on a mission. And he says, But I'm slight of tongue, and I have a heavy a heavy mouth. I can't do it by myself, and God says I'm going to accommodate you with your brother, Aaron, yeah, and that's a beautiful thing.

Philip King-Lowe   

Yeah, I'd like to interject here with a guest I've had on Samuel J. Levine, who wrote a book about is Was Yosef on the Spectrum? And to clarify for the listeners, um, at the end of Genesis, there's a story about a man named Joseph who was born to Jacob, and he was sold into slavery because his brothers were jealous. He eventually was taken in a slave and taken to Pharaoh in Egypt, and he was known as a dream interpreter and that sort of thing. And so, Samuel J. Levine wrote a book about is, Was Yosef on the Spectrum? And I remember having a conversation with him about that. And one of the things that he pointed out is when Pharaoh was worried about a dream that he had had, and he had asked those closest to him, and they wouldn't really give him an answer, and then they called in Joseph. Because Joseph was the one who responded honestly with what that meant. Samuel J. Levine has concluded, on his part, that it's possible that Joseph was Autistic because he was the only one to tell the point-blank truth.

Matthew Lawrence 

Yeah, I'm familiar with Mr. Levine's with his book. And he said, a nice book, and he looks at both the textual tradition that we find in the Bible, and also goes to later Rabbinic literature to look at Joseph. And yeah, I think it's fun. I think if you can also read Joseph as a queer figure and a gender and a gender queer non-conforming figure as well. Using those same texts, which is fun, but for me, it's not, you know, while he's looking to diagnose Joseph, my kind of reading and how, like this entire lens, which, which Dr. Rabbi Liz Shane has kind of come up with, this idea of reading the Torah through a Neurodivergent lens. Isn't so much about diagnosing people and like looking for evidence, like, ah, look at this piece, and this piece and this piece, therefore they must be Autistic. But more of how can I read the text through the eyes of an Autistic person, if I can reimagine them as Autistic, is their thing, if I read it in that way, that I might learn from it, right? Yeah, and so, yeah. So, with Joseph, it's definitely possible to read it like that. And I think there's a lot of people you can read it like that. And I think that's, that's what, that's, what's cool. Because, you know, I think for a lot of Autistic people, right? There's a I always, I always hear that like, oh, Autistic people aren't spiritual. Autistic people aren't into text. By the way, like being into the Bible as literature has nothing to do with religion, or if you're spiritual, right? It's a text that's important in western civilization, and it's interesting to read as even as a document. Well, I don't care what people's theological ideas are, right? I'm sure that my theological ideas wouldn't match many people's even in my own community. But it's the thing is that, how do I make this text mine? How can I take this thing which is meant to be for everybody where it is so critical for the entire society? Because when we can read into through an Autistic lens, not only do we see ourselves there, but we also show that we've always been there and that our type of thinking is really behind these kinds of things. Very often, whether or not it's true, it helps us see that, and maybe can also build empathy for others, especially in these communities, right, which I think is important. I think that's what Mr. Levine, that's a big thing about his, you know, we can say that Joseph is Autistic. Maybe we can accept Autistic people in our community, which is, you know, I get it, but I think it goes beyond that as well.

After this next commercial break, Matthew will talk about the self-care he needs to do to deal with sensory rich environments, activities with high social expectations with some advice for others to manage their boundaries.

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Segment 3

Philip King-Lowe   

As we turn to my second question that I always ask is, I mean, how can we get our Intersectional Autistic Adult communities engaged? Let me see. Let's talk about one other thing that we've talked about in our episode description here, about exploring the challenges that Autistic Jews face with navigating the sensory rich environments like synagogues, and addressing stigma, both within the Jewish and Autistic communities. Um, you know, we were just talking a little bit about that. This conversation isn't just about Autism and Jewish Judaism as distinct identities, but about how the rich interplay between them and how they inform challenge and deepen each other in meaningful ways. So, I mean, I think this is a good point to start talking about, how do we engage ourselves in conversations about things like this?

Matthew Lawrence

So, a big thing for me, right? So, and this is going to be relatable, not just to only other Jewish people here, but actually, I think most Autistic people who have who live in communities where family is a very central thing and communal kind of activities, which is obviously not only Jewish people, right? I think that's probably most communities. And as Autistic people, we often at the margins of those communities, right? And we're not fully included, whether that's a religious community, a cultural community, a town, a sports club, right? Doesn't actually matter that, you know, you mentioned, like, the sensory thing that, and that was the first thing that kind of, like, popped up for me, right? Like, so, like, in Jewish communities, we, you know, we live in close-knit families, and we have big extended families, and we get together a few times a year for big holidays that involve a lot of liturgy and a lot of special foods and a lot of loud voices and different textures and not being able to eat certain things. So, there's a lot of a lot of sensory stuff for that, and there's a lot of guilt from when we don't want to, we aren't able to participate in the same way, right? So, I think everyone can relate to the big family dinner. So, you know, we're recording this right before Thanksgiving, so a lot of your listeners in the US can relate to that from all faith backgrounds, but that big family dinner where you want to be with your family, you want to see people, but you know, there's the stuffiness of the room because of all the cooking, there's all the people speaking, there's multiple conversations. It's extremely over stimulating, and maybe we need to take time away, and that can be really hard, because people will make us feel guilty, or we actually want to be there, but we're not being accommodated, which then brings up the other idea of, Why are these people who I'm close with and who love me, actually accommodating me, right? And that's the thing, I comes up a lot in the Jewish community, but I think also in all communities, right? And it becomes kind of ground zero for self-advocacy. Which we can look at as a negative thing, right? And like, oh, my God, I have to advocate for myself. But also, okay, this is an advocate situation where I have, I don't want to say more control, because a lot of us don't have positive relationships with our families, right? But maybe more control than we might have in a work situation or in a public situation.

Philip King-Lowe  

So, what are some ways that you have found to do with those sensory, rich environments? Talk about some things that you yourself have done.

Matthew Lawrence 

Yeah. A big thing for me when it comes to the holidays is that I always make sure that both like whoever the host is, whether that's my parents or my in laws or aunts or uncles, whoever might be hosting an event like this, I always make sure that the host and everybody who's attending knows that I in order to preserve my mental health and my self-regulation, I am gonna have to leave the dinner table at multiple times during dinner. And I'm not gonna make an announcement. I'm not gonna go. And I'm just gonna have to just going to have to do that. And you might say, well, that's socially faux pas, and that's this, that's what I need. It's like, I have to do that, or I can't come at all like, so I make sure that people know that. And a lot of people will say, no, I can't say that. My mother won't understand. My father won't understand. My grandmother will be upset. For me, that's number one, right? Like my need, my need to be able to self-regulate, is paramount to what Aunt Betty thinks about me getting up from the table for 10 minutes, right? And I'm confident that that's a need for me. I don't think that's a desire. I don't think it's a want. I don't think that's me being anti-social. That is how I can stay social, right? I make sure people know that, so I don't have to even explain it before, right? Like that's already understood so and what's fun about that is, and as the years go by, you don't have to keep explaining that it just becomes the way things are.

Philip King-Lowe  

And since we're talking about holiday stuff, regardless of what your tradition is, I refer back to the shows that I've had about, you know, the one from, I believe, season one, where we talked about this, the Preparing for the Sensory Unfriendly Holidays, and a few other shows I've had that you need to be able to communicate your boundaries, your needs, but also create for yourself those moments where you can take care of your needs. You know, last year, I talked with Mitchell Schaps from MNeurodivergent about, you know, creating Neuro-affirming spaces. And we talked about many things in there. You know, there are those of us who don't like to be touched, but we're told, you know, go give your grandmother a kiss, or let your grandmother kiss you, and those sorts of things. And as I often do, I want to advocate for all of our Autistic people. No, you don't have to do those things. You can say, I need you to be able to exercise my own sense of consent. And, you know, sometimes it may just mean I go in and I say, hello, you know. And regardless of what your tradition is, social, religious, cultural or whatever, I always remind people this time of year that a lot of us Autistic, we do not like surprise gifts. We actually don't like them, and it's not really something we can really celebrate in the way that non-Autistics might like us to. So, there are Autistics that if you're going to buy a gift, they like to be asked first as to what they might like. And I know I repeat this a lot, so, but bear with me. You know, some of us Autistics, we are honest to a fault. So, if you give us something we don't like, and you ask us, do you like it, we're going to answer you honestly, no, I don't like it. And we know that some, for some people, that can be quite heartbreaking to hear that you bought them a gift and they didn't like it. Well, it's just how some of us are. So, first of all, ask many of us, do you want a gift? What might you like that gift to be? You know, what gifts don't always have to be I'm giving you something material. I'm giving you something you know that you can hold or touch or anything like that. It could be, is there an Autism organization that perhaps I can donate as a gift in your name that might just be enough? And sometimes that gift just might be just spending a little time with somebody enough that they can actually enjoy that amount of time, and that's enough. And I also want to say that for a lot of us, Autistics, if you want to surprise a lot of us, just tell us that you know our needs in your presence are something that you will respect. For many of us, that's about that's one of the greatest gifts you could possibly give us, because we are often advocating for ourselves. So, you know, space is too loud, too big, too crowded, and we just need some time away. So sometimes a gift, even a surprise gift, could actually be okay. If you need, you know, you're here for the Christmas party, or you're here for the for the party, or whatever that party may be there's a space, there's a safe space back in the back bedroom for you to go. That's a lovely Christmas gift, or a lovely gift to give, believe me, for many of us were like, Thank you. You know that sort of thing. Oh, yeah, you know. And so those are my things I say every year as we walk into the holiday spirit. And I'm sure that, you know, you have a lot of your Jewish holidays where there's so much family focus. And I know that for a lot of Jewish folks, your family and your gatherings and your foods and everything, there's such an important part of those holiday traditions. But I think you've just said that. You know, sometimes you just have to say, I need my limits, and I need my limits to be respected. What do you think about some of that?

Matthew Lawrence

I'd also like to point out how you mentioned this, that no people get offended when we don't like their gifts. They get sad. And it's, well, I think it's just as much as it's because they're sad that they didn't get you something that you liked. It's that you said that you don't like it, right? They don't actually care if you don't like a gift. It's that you embarrass them about not liking me.

Philip King-Lowe   

Oh yeah, you know, when I was younger. I mean, my mother used to say, you know, did you have to tell them you didn't like the gift? After all, they were just being nice to you, like and I used to think, no, if I don't like something, I'm gonna, I'm going to say so.

Matthew Lawrence

Nope, but I mean, it's like that. It's like, oh, it's like, it's like, when, like, Autistic people or disabled people in general, were given, like, basic access, or given, like we're given, or like, someone says, oh, can I help you? It's like, yes, you can help me like this. And then you go, oh, actually, I don't want to help you, like that, so then don't offer to help, right? Like helping how you it's good for you. The nondisabled person, I don’t know that's working for us. We don't have to be grateful, right? It's like, you know, I was once, you know, speaking to a person who was living on the street, and I asked him, “We know, what would you like to eat? And he said, oh, it's really nice of you to ask me what I want to eat, because people because people just give me their food and they'll give me things that I'm allergic to, and then they get upset with me that I don't want to eat it. Same idea. I want to really I love what you said about this, gifts and holidays. I want to really emphasize you mentioned the foods. I want to emphasize to my Jewish listeners, listening out there. So, like in Jewish like so a lot of Jewish holidays, for those who don't know, right? We have certain holidays where we cannot eat, right? Yom Kippur, which is a fast day. We have Passover, where we have to abstain from anything with leavened wheat in it. So, no bread, no beer, no whiskey, no certain types of crackers, nothing, nothing that has any of this leavening in it. Um, I want to really emphasize to the Autistic listeners here that, but all really to everybody like, you know, in Judaism, we have this concept called pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh, which means, you know, like, it's the concept of doing something to save a life. And we have a concept, right? Like, if you can't, if you can't fast, because you will be dysregulated, because that's going to cause you harm. You don't have to do it. You're not religiously. You're actually obligated to not do it, that it's actually a commandment that you must eat, right? You know, with Passover, there's a lot of issues with same foods, and a lot of people shame themselves that, oh, my god, I can't eat my same food during this time, and so they end up going and having lots of meltdowns during that week, not into the holiday and losing the entire point of everything and getting sick. And that is not that you shouldn't do that. You can't do that, and you are, you are allowed not to, right? People often say, oh, I can live with being a little bit dysregulated. No, no, you can't. Because if you're gonna be chronically dysregulated and going from meltdown to meltdown to meltdown to meltdown, you end up in burnout that way and to live unhealthily just because you can. Yeah, a lot of us, we can live being in burnout too. Does that mean that we think that burnout is healthy, or that it's something that's admirable. Your life, your mental health, your physical health. And I want to really emphasize that meltdowns is a physical health thing. It's not just a mental health thing. It is a physical thing too. That is paramount. Our lives are paramount.

Philip King-Lowe 

I love how we're actually into, how do we empower Autistic Adults? And this is where we talk a lot about, you know, we're often talking about self-care, which we're already discussing. You know some of what's empowering for you is that when you can actually talk about what your needs are, whether or not they're respected, quite frankly, but you can at least talk, you can talk about them, and you can advocate for them, that's something that's actually empowering. You know, because my last show this upcoming month is actually, we're going to talk about Embracing the Intersectional Autistic Culture with the owner of The Autistic Culture Podcast here. And you know, the thing is, is that some of what we're really having our challenges with is getting people to embrace our Autistic culture, which is often a culture within several cultures. Um, you know, the entire conversation about whether or not there is an Autistic culture remains a debate, which, as far as I'm concerned, the debate is over. Yes, there is. And you know, I mean, you Matthew, do a lot of groups every month to really bring the Autistic culture together with all of its various pieces, facets and groups of people here or there. So, you know, we're talking about, you know, Embracing the Autistic Culture and many of the cultures that are already within it, which is what I've been talking about during season four, to do with our Intersectional communities. You know, and you know, just to kind of say, you know, Autistic Jewish people, they are one of those cultures within our culture. And so, this is where our intersect, our conversations about intersectionality meet. So, what do you think of that Matthew?

Matthew Lawrence 

What I love to think is that Jewish, so the most foundational text for Jewish culture and of the religion that Jewish people practice, is called The Talmud, which is essentially a stream of consciousness, debate between lots of different people over a few 100 years, arguing over fine points of various things and never reaching a conclusion. And this is serves as the basis, not just for a lot of Jewish folklore and Jewish customs and the non-religious elements, but also as in many ways, the basis for the Jewish legal system. And it's the most important document that we have, even more important, as many would say, than the Bible or the Torah. And for me, it is simply a bunch of Neurodivergent people arguing and expressing their cultural outlook. And I find that to be like for me, Jewish culture is very much Neurodivergent culture, or Autistic culture. And I say Neurodivergent because there's a lot of folks in there who you could code as ADHD and not necessarily Autistic or dyslexic, and not necessarily Autistic and blind and not necessarily Autistic. But for me, I can't actually distinguish between the Autistic Jewish culture and the mainstream Jewish culture, except that the mainstream Jewish culture is an Autistic culture, which being done by neuro-normative, performing people very often. And the Neurodivergent people are kind of thrown out, so to speak. I think it's a lot. I think there's a lot of traditions like that where, you know, you have Neurodivergent people developed it with and then kind of got pushed out, and things became kind of calcified from those performing neuro-normativity, who might be Neurodivergent themselves, right? And I think there's a lot for everyone to learn from that. To learn from this con, this cultural concept of talking for the sake of talking, for arguing and debating, without necessarily looking to win or to reach a conclusion, but simply just talking, because through talking, this is how we build empathy. This is how we get to know each other. This is how we get to learn ourselves. And I think that's and that's what the reason I do all those groups, right is for Autistic I believe that when Autistic people can sit and talk to each other, not talk past each other, but actually talk to each other, we start to realize that we're not alone and that we're actually there's a lot of us, and actually we're beautiful, and our ways of thinking are valid, and our ways of being are valid and wonderful and beautiful, and that, yes, as you said, the debate is over. We have a culture, right? And we can only really see that when we're in community with other Autistic people, and as long as we're isolated from that, we're gonna feel that pain.

After this final commercial break, we will thank Matthew for his time followed by Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board.

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Commercial Break III

Future Shows

The final episode of season 4 will be Embracing the Intersectional Autistic Culture with Dr. Angela Kingdon who is the host of The Autistic Culture Podcast.  All the episodes of Today’s Autistic Moment in 2024 have focused on our Intersectional Autistic communities. We will explore what embracing the Intersectional Autistic Adult Communities means so that all of us feel like we have a place of belonging in the movement of Neurodiversity.

The Premier of Season 5 in 2025 on January 12th will be Today’s Autistic Moment’s 100th Show.  My guests will include sponsors, guests and listeners.  Together we will celebrate what we are achieving, talk about why the sponsors support the podcast, and look at where we are going in 2025.  You are all invited to join us on January 12th.

Join my guests A.J. Locashio, Jessica Jahns and I on January 26th when we will explain the focus of Season 5 Navigating the Future of Multidimensional Autistic Leadership. Being Autistic is neurological, physical, cultural, awareness, avoidance, seeking, relational, personal, social, and engaging. During Season 5 my guests and I will be encouraging Autistics to navigate our future as leaders through the multidimensional aspects of our Autistic identity.  If you are feeling depressed about the future of the Intersectional Autistic communities, this discussion will help you to find strength and hope to be the best advocates we can be.

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

♫ Podcast Segment Beginning Music ♫

Segment 4

Philip King-Lowe   

Well, Matthew, thank you so much for being here today. We've really talked about a lot of different things here. And I think we've made a great way to look at things. My last comment to our Autistic communities is to remember that part of our intersectionality is listening, as Matthew said, to other Autistics, but also listening to Autistics from a lot of these Intersectional cultures and communities, and dialoguing with each other, listening to each other, and even accepting that we don't know absolutely everything about the other cultures, and it's well worth it for us to ask questions and to learn from each other. That's a very important thing to bringing all of our Autistic communities together. So, thank you, Matthew, for being here, and we will, of course, all of course, we will be talking to you again. We always do. So, thank you.

Matthew Lawrence

Thank you very much for having me, Philip.

Philip King-Lowe

You're welcome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board

All of these events and many others with their links can be found at todaysautisticmoment.com/bulletinboard.

Understanding Autism virtual classes are offered by The Autism Society of Minnesota. The final class in 2024 will be on December 9th at 6pm. Classes are free of charge, but you must register to attend.

Are you a professional who works with Autistic people? Such as a therapist, psychologist, occupational therapist, psychiatrist, social worker, case manager, or health care provider?  Join the AuSM Professional Networking Group to work with The Autism Society of Minnesota’s Counseling and Consultation team that offers a resource to help you network with other professionals.  Group sessions are held monthly. See AuSM’s Event Calendar for more information.

On December 17th, Jillian Nelson, AuSM’s Community Resource and Public Policy Advocate will be the presenter of Minnesota Service Navigation.  Attendees will learn about the range of services available and discover which ones might be the best fit for you or your loved ones. Jillian will guide you through the process of finding out what you’re eligible for to access the support you need.

On January 24th, 2025, beginning at 9am-12pm there will be a virtual workshop at The Autism Society of Minnesota entitled, Maximizing Your Disability Services. Dr. Barbara Luskin, a therapist at The Autism Society of Minnesota and Jillian Nelson will be presenting this workshop.

Go to ausm.org to get more information about these and other social and recreational programs, educational events, counseling services and support groups at The Autism Society of Minnesota.

If you are looking for a few sensory friendly performances for the holiday season, go to todaysautisticmoment.com/bulletinboard for information about those events.

MNeurodivergent is a social club rooted in a vision of bringing Neurodivergent Minnesotans together to build meaningful connections.  Its core principle is to foster an environment where all are treated with dignity and respect regardless of ability or preferences. Go to the bulletin board at todaysautisticmoment.com and click on the Meet Up link to become a member and attend their events.

Today’s Autistic Moment is here because of the generosity of supporters and sponsors.  Please join the supporters by clicking on “Support Today’s Autistic Moment” on todaysautisticmoment.com.

If you work for a company or organization that supports Autistic Adults and the movement for Neurodiversity, I would love to have you sponsor ads on the show.

If you would like to sponsor an ad and/or have questions about Today’s Autistic Moment, please send an email to todaysautisticmoment@gmail.com.

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.

May you have an Autistically Amazing day.

♫ ♫ Closing Background Music with credits ♫

All of the guests meet with me on Zoom to record the interviews. The interview transcripts are provided by Otter. The podcast is prepared and edited on WavePad Masters Edition by NCH Software.  The podcast is published by Spotify for Podcasters.  The Music that you hear is licensed to Today’s Autistic Moment by premiumbeat.com.