Autistic Adults and Justice in Employment

Autistic Adults and Justice in Employment

May 24, 2021

[You will notice that some words have a strike through font.  These are to reflect the new website created in September 2022]

Welcome everyone to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.  My name is Philip King-Lowe.  I am the owner, producer, and host; and I am an Autistic Adult.  Thank you so very much for listening.

This first segment of Today’s Autistic Moment is sponsored by The Autism Society of Minnesota: Minnesota’s First Autism Resource. The Autism Society of Minnesota has been serving Minnesota’s Autism Community for the past 50 years. Visit them online at ausm.org.

Go to todaysautisticmoment.com for the transcrtipt

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Before I was diagnosed as Autistic in 2011, I had a terrible time getting employed and staying employed for over 30 years of my life.  I had a few occupations that I worked very well at, but, getting interviewed, hired, kept employed and being happy in most traditional work environments never lasted very long.  I had potential employers who did not answer job applications, cover letters or resumes. If I was hired, I had a terrible time communicating with my supervisors and co-workers. After I was diagnosed, I then understood what had been happening.  As I began talking with other Autistic Adults, I learned that others had been through similar experiences. It is estimated that 86% of Autistics are unemployed.  There are many Autistic Adults that cannot get a job interview or get past the interview to be employed.  There are just as many Autistic Adults who once they are employed, face discrimination through on the job training, or working with their co-workers.  We have the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) that is supposed to protect Autistics from discrimination, but discrimination by employers towards Autistic Adults is happening more than we would like to believe. Why is it that Autistic Adults cannot find justice in employment?’’

My guest Samuel J. Levine is the Director of the Jewish Law Institute and a Professor of Law at Touro College in New York.  Samuel Levine is a very outspoken advocate for special education and disability rights, including and especially for the rights of Autistic people.  Samuel J. Levine is the author of the book Was Yosef On the Spectrum?: Understanding Joseph Through Torah, Midrash, and Classical Jewish Sources. Samuel’s book can be purchased through my store on todaysautisticmoment.com.  I started getting acquainted with Samuel J. Levine on LinkedIn.  I have found Samuel’s perspective about justice in employment for Autistics to be brilliantly precise, and his way of talking about the subject is just as equitable.

Please stay tuned after this first commercial break, after which I will begin my conversation with Samuel J. Levine. 

 Commercial Break I

Philip King-Lowe
So Samuel, I want to thank you for being on this episode of Today's Autistic Moment to talk about an issue that is really, really big for many Autistics. Employment is probably the major problem for many Autistic Adults, because of how the system is as far as employment, employees, and so on, so forth. And we know that many Autistic Adults, have a very difficult time surviving, and being employed, at what someone called would call traditional employment. And actually, that's one that's been my case, and one of the reasons why I created the podcast. So we're going to talk today about a justice in employment for Autistic Adults. And I know many of my listeners as well as myself, we will very much appreciate what you have to share today. What important information do Autistic Adults and our caregivers need to know about with justice and employment?  And maybe could you also give us some information as to what your interest is, in assisting Autistic Adults with this issue of justice in employment?

Samuel J. Levine
Well, thank you, Philip. And I want to start by thanking you for having me on your program. It's a pleasure and really an honor for me to have this opportunity to participate in this way, in the very important work that you're doing. And I agree with you from my perspective, and I've been involved as an advocate as an ally in the areas of disability rights in the areas of Autism and the areas of special education in a variety of different ways over the years. And I agree with you that for many Autistic Adults, employment is one of the key areas of effort, of advocacy, and frankly of discrimination. I think it's fair to say statistics have borne out that Autistic Adults are disproportionately unemployed and underemployed. And here, I think we have to look at some of the reasons for this. And the primary reason in my estimation, is, as I alluded to, as I mentioned, outright, a form of discrimination. But you know, where does discrimination grow out of?  And I think it grows out of ignorance, lack of knowledge, intolerance, lack of empathy. And that's where my focus is, in changing, not so much the law. And as a law professor, I well know that we have the ADA. We have had the ADA for 30 years. We have an anti-discrimination law when it comes to employment law, I should say, I'm not an employment lawyer. I'm not a disability lawyer. But I'm quite familiar with many of these areas of law, but I also know as a former prosecutor, as a lawyer, that intolerant individuals have the opportunity in our society, in our system all too often to get around the laws. And if someone makes it their business to avoid hiring Autistic Adults, well, there's only so far that we can go with the legal protections that the ADA provides. We've had 30 years of the ADA.  I don't want to in any way diminish the importance of anti discrimination laws, the importance of laws that protect the rights of individuals with disabilities of Autistic Adults and others. But I also don't want to underestimate the importance of changing the mindset of employers. And that's where my interest heavily lies, for Autistic Adults often have the challenge when it comes to the application process, when it comes to the interview process. And for those who are hired, when it comes to continuing, maintaining their employment, and progressing and being promoted within the workplace. And those are the primary challenges I'm interested in focusing on. 

Philip King-Lowe
Thank you for being so concerned about those things. I myself, have faced on numerous occasions and various jobs I've done throughout my, my adulthood, before and since I've been diagnosed.  And you're absolutely correct. We like to say here in Minnesota, that we have some of the strongest human rights laws. Which is is true. But you and I were talking a few weeks ago, and as I named, and like what you were just saying, there's always a way to get around the laws of discrimination. Um, you know, I believe that, you know, an employer can hire somebody who is Autistic, and realize they can't not hire them, because of, they can't blatantly say it. But there's nothing that would prevent them from, you know, beginning of file folder on that individual, marking down the times they are late, marking down the times they may cause a disruption within those within the work staff or, or break something or whatever. There's nothing to stop them from making their work life miserable, or putting it in such a way that the Autistic just cannot possibly survive in that employment. And I think that's a big part of the injustice that happens.

Samuel J. Levine
I agree with that completely. And I think that, again, the statistics have borne out that that's reality. Although here too, it's difficult to demonstrate with any precision what the statistics are, because of the very important point that you made, where an employer will find a way, find a pretext, of pretense. And if an employer wants to target an Autistic person, because of the employer's lack of tolerance, then they will do their best to find a way, they will play the games that again, as a lawyer,  I emphasize how important it is for us not to be naive, not to be too trusting.  Although we should hope to look for the best in people, we also have to be prepared for the worst in people.  And we have to recognize that individuals and employers can try their best and will unfortunately, sometimes try their best, to find a way to play those games. And it's very difficult for an Autistic person to have any response for that type of mistreatment, and discrimination.

Philip King-Lowe
I happen to believe that there is a very big difference between direct discrimination and implied discrimination. Implied discrimination is very difficult to prove to anybody. Would you agree with that? 

Samuel J. Levine
Well, absolutely. And here's where if you know, where your point is well taken, and I sometimes draw the analogy to other forms of human rights, as you mentioned, and civil rights. You know, we've had civil rights laws on the books since 1964, right? Even older than the ADA. I don't think it's plausible to say that we've done away with discrimination in other areas. And why is that? Because, as you said, when we talk about implicit bias, when we talk about forms of discrimination that are under the surface. And once again, we're putting ourselves as best as we can in the shoes of the unethical, immoral, employer. And you're thinking themselves, well, I'll never get away with this. If I say something outright, but as you pointed out, Philip, I'll start the file. You know, I'll keep that file tucked away somewhere, and I'll be overly critical of this individual. I'm gonna have the microscope, watching everything they do. And meanwhile, everyone else at work is doing something wrong. We all make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. We all have our deficits, we all have our skills and our talents. And a good employer will look for and accentuate the skills and talents. And as necessary, will he use these terms, accommodate for, find supports for, fine structures to accommodate for whatever the need may be, whatever the deficit may be for any employer. And here's where I really like to focus on that idea of a mindset. Really a change in your recognition that employers should have. And I'd even take it one step further and say it's in their own best interest. And this is the form of advocacy that I like to pursue. To make employers to help employers understand that it's in their best interest, their own selfish as it were best interest, to hire Autistic people who have the skills that they're looking for. It's counterproductive for someone to hire, or to interview someone who can do the job, who can produce in the way the employer is looking for. And then on the basis of some, again, discriminatory, some backwards way of viewing the workplace, some unfair, unwritten rules. On that basis, it's counterproductive for the employer themselves, to say, Well, I'm going to target this individual, again, in this surreptitious way, I'm going to target this individual, because I just don't want to have them around the workplace.

Philip King-Lowe
Yes, absolutely. And, and, um, you know, it's one of those things that, once again, it's really difficult to prove. I mean, if the company's got a, I don't know, a policy in their, in their, in their handbook that, you know, an employee, and an individual must be on time, every single day, there can be several employee employers who may be sorry, employees, who are neurotypical who could be late five, five minutes a day, every day, but the Autistic is watched over so meticulously, if they're there, they're, you know, 30 seconds over the mark or something like that. Um, you know, so I know exactly. The other issue that really does go on for a lot of Autistics in employment situations, is how they can work around a lot of their co-workers.  I know that I for myself, one of the really difficult places that I experienced is workplace politics often involves having the big boss on the who CEO or director of some kind. And then they've got what we call middle management, a supervisor of a particular department of people.  And, and, and often, I know a lot of us Autistics have had, have had real challenges with how do we work with this middle man supervisor, who might be being specifically harsh or nasty? And we've go the director say, the main supervisor who's being unusually kind. But, you know, finding a way to communicate with that middle person is so very complicated. I have found myself numerous times in situations where that has been the case. What is your response to that?

Samuel J. Levine
Well, I'm glad you raised that point. And I'm glad you expressed your own experiences. I certainly recognize and I just want to mention, my realization that "if you've met one Autistic person, you've met one Autistic person." So we do sometimes generalize and I don't want to stereotype. But there are common experiences that we found find among Autistic people at the workplace. And this issue of office politics is among the most significant and most challenging and most detrimental area of employment when it comes to Autistic people in terms of both retention and promotion at the office. And if we think of office politics, we sometimes think back to what I call the schoolyard. And I appreciate your focus on Autistic Adults, because there is a fair amount of attention. There's still plenty of work to be done. But there has been a fair amount of attention and we've progressed significantly, again with a long way to go, when it comes to children when it comes to Autistic children. And one of the challenges that we often see for Autistic children is the schoolyard. It's where there are unwritten rules, where it's where there are not official structures in place. And that's where we see time and again, Autistic children who are isolated, ostracized, excluded, belittled by crowds of children who are playing together. Well, sadly enough, if we look at the office structure, there are official rules in place. And as you mentioned, there may be a rule that you have to be on time. I think we all get that. I think we all get that within reason. An employer, a smart employer will make accommodations as necessary for employees who can't be there on time. And I just want to make the point, that when we refer to accommodations for Autistic people, which is again said to be by employers, one of the obstacles to hiring Autistic employees. In reality employers make accommodations for everyone. They may be different accommodations, they may be different kinds are different forms of accommodations. But again, no one's perfect. No employee comes to the job with every set of tools, or conducts themselves, the way the office as a whole is going to want them to act or the way the employer is going to want them to act. And employers recognize that right away, and they hire employees for the skills they bring, for the talents for what they can produce. And they accommodate they make up for they allow for other areas where they may have to step in where they may have to allow, in their estimation, less than perfection. That's part of life, that's part of anyone's life. Well, there are written rules, and then there are unwritten rules. And the unwritten rules of office politics. Take us back to the schoolyard where there's no rhyme or reason, where there's no explanation as to why someone has the ability.  And as you mentioned, in the workplace, the authority to tell someone we don't like the way you do things. You didn't breaking any rules. You didn't do anything wrong. We can't put our finger on it. But we just don't like the way you act. There's something about you that quote unquote, rubs us the wrong way. Well, again, it's bad enough in the schoolyard. And as a society, I think we've done a lot of work, plenty ways to go. But we've done a lot of work in trying to remedy some of that situation. When it comes to the schoolyard when it comes to the classroom when it comes to the setting that children find themselves in. Why is it that in the workplace, it still seems to be okay? Why is it that in the workplace, we allow, as you mentioned, whether it's the middle manager, or whether it's co-employees, who just decide, you're not among us, you're not like us, and therefore, we are not going to include you?  And that's where I see the biggest problem. That's where I see the mindset, being the key to remedying we've got these laws on the books. And again, they have their place, we should enforce them as much as possible, we should advocate for the enforcement of the law. But we all know and as a lawyer, as a former prosecutor, I know as much as anyone that it's more so the societal attitudes and the mindset of the individuals who have that power who have that authority.

Philip King-Lowe
I agree with that. Um, there is also a great concept that I've experienced too, once an Autistic becomes, I beg your pardon everybody. Once some Autistics become very talented at being able to do a particular job, not only will they do it, well, they may very well do it better than many around them. Because. Because, once some Autistics get the understanding of what they need to do and the process by which they need to do to basically do a job well, they will, they will concentrate they will do that job, in some cases, the best that the company could possibly ask for.  And I mean, please feel free to add your comments pro or con here. But I do think that one of the problems that can sometimes exist between co workers, and such is that this guy can do this guy, I'm sorry, this person can do everything so superbly, and yet our work is just not quite measured up. And I think that can, unfortunately, rattle some major egos in the workplace, that put some people on edge. You want to give your thoughts to that?

Samuel J. Levine
I think that's an excellent point. And here too, I like to look back sometimes to see what's going on at the school level, at the elementary school level, even at the kindergarten or nursery level, where it's not uncommon. And again, I take your point, I appreciate that everyone is different. There are many Autistic people who have a particular skill set, who are particularly good at something, it's almost a stereotype. But I think there is data to support the finding, for example, that there are many Autistic people who are particularly good at math, at science. And if they find themselves in the classroom, where they're excelling in that area, so that may breed resentment, jealousy, among their classmates, and the parallel is clear at the workplace, as you're pointing out as well. But, and here, again, as a generalization, if the student or employee who is excelling, has the social skill, has the ability to read the reactions of their classmates, of their co workers in a way that they can adjust.  That they can act in a way that doesn't breed this resentment, if they're able to read those social cues, in a way that they can somehow fend off that jealousy, that resentment, then the problem will not be as significant.  As it turns out. Many Autistic individuals do not have that same ability to read the social cues, again, a generalization but something that I think we often find, and I defer, obviously to your lived experience, I'd never speak for you. But that's where, whether it's classmates in school for whether it's co employees, they don't understand. They may not try to understand, and I'm certainly placing the blame on them. But the employees, the co-employees might not understand what it is they're looking at.  Why is this person is so good at certain skills, but not good at other skills? And it's that what they perceive as kind of an unevenness that, again, they don't understand. They don't have I'm going to use the term empathy. You know, there's this sort of stereotype and unfair stereotype of Autistic people lacking empathy. Here, it's the empathy of the co workers is the empathy of the other students in the school who fail to understand the Autistic classmates or the Autistic co-workers. 

Commercial Break II

Philip King-Lowe
I'm often amazed that that by the time I get to my second question, we're already talking about barriers, because we are even here. What are the barriers for Autistic Adults of all ages when it comes to justice and employment? And we have been so talking about so many of them. Intolerance being one of the one of the one of the big,
one of the biggest culprits here. But let's also name the other main, I feel a big main culprit here. And that is when it comes to the workplace. There's always the money and production are usually the bottom line. And if what an employee is doing is somehow hampering that, that will be the first motive to basically rule somebody out. And, you know, unfortunately, because employers always have the upper hand here, um, is that if it's if if if a behavior of an Autistic individual seems to be interfering with production of a job and or the bottom line of them making their profits, then that would be probably the biggest reason that they would want to get rid of that employee.  You know, the other barrier that I think. And you can elaborate on both of these. But, um, I personally have a problem with the wording that comes from the ADA, about "preferred accommodation" versus "reasonable accommodation."  I feel that when it comes to those words, preferred, what the Autistic or anybody with a disability really needs is considered "preferred." Yet what is reasonable for the employee, employer, sorry, is generally not reasonable for the for the disabled individual. And it's amazing how difficult it can be, for Autistics, and many others with disabilities to maneuver in what's supposed to be preferred versus reasonable.  Please comment on some of that. 

Samuel J. Levine
Well, maybe to start with your second point, because this is an area where, again, as a lawyer, I'm well familiar with the concept of the reasonable person. And for better or for worse, in this case, probably for worse. But for better or for worse, much of our life actually depends on what we call reasonableness. And how do we measure reasonableness from some so called "objectively reasonable person?"  But over time, many scholars and the law has been slow to recognize this, but many scholars and advocates have pointed out . Well, what's reasonable to one person is not reasonable to another person. And obviously, if an individual has a disability has a certain deficit, has an area of weakness, it may be reasonable to have certain expectations for others and not for them. And it may be considered going out of your way or unreasonable to accommodate for that individual's disabilities or needs. And here's where going back to your first point.  One of the major strategies I think we should have, and I'm involved in some of these efforts to promote employment for individuals with disabilities, and in particular, when it comes to Autism, or we're talking about individ, invisible disabilities. And when we're talking about a population, and once again, "If you've met one person with Autism, that one person on the Autism Spectrum", and we shouldn't overgeneralize, but it's not uncommon for an Autistic person to have certain skills, to have certain talents that they can bring to the table. And as you mentioned, we have to realize as well being realistic, as you said, the bottom line for most employers is going to be, follow the money, it's all about the money. Well, you know what? Let's bring it to the attention of employers, that there's profit to be made. As I said, it's almost unfortunate to put it this way. But let's make it within their own self interest. And here's where moving away from what's sometimes called a charity model, where there's a place for charity, there's a place for helping people. But you know what?  A lot of employers take the attitude that this is not the place, work is not the place to give charity. And you know what, it's also somewhat counterproductive for the individual, in fact, quite counterproductive. For many Autistic people, if they are seen as being hired on the basis of charity, on the basis of doing them or someone else a favor, because that's going to breed the type of resentment that we mentioned just before. That's going to put the employer initially at a with a negative perception of this individual. They're going to say, Well, I'm doing someone a favor, okay. I'll resent the fact that I have to hire this person, and the employees, the other employees at the company, and here to going back to what we see in schools a lot. And and your point about the progress about the limits of the ADA, here too, when it comes to areas of special education, which I have been involved in, where schools can find a way to say that we're making reasonable accommodations or the child is making reasonable progress. Well, if those accommodations, those supports are not provided in a way that's thoughtfully carried out, then other children often resent this individual because they see them getting special treatment of sorts. Well, it's not special. Its justice. Its the right thing to do. And here's where we have to change the mindset and have employers realize that in many cases, it's in their own self interest, there are going to benefit from hiring an Autistic person, not as a form of charity, that as a worst case scenario, not because they're going to do someone a favor and at their first opportunity, they're going to say, Well, I'm done with giving charity, I'm done with this paper, I've had enough of this, or where the other employees will say, Oh, we all know why that person is here. And we resent that as well. We have to change the mindset, where if someone has the skills for the job, and someone is producing, let's find those skills. Let's emphasize those skills. And a good employer seems to me, a smart employer would say, I'm going to build up those skills, I'm going to draw upon those skills. And again, just as I make accommodations of sorts, for my other employees, when they need me to support them in certain ways, so they can focus on their skills, so they can focus on making a profit. For me, as you said, the bottom line, follow the money, it's all about the money, well, I'm going to have that same attitude. Where I'm going to look for and you know, there are some big companies, they're well known. Here, too, there's a lot of progress to be made, long ways to go. But I think we're familiar with some of the, the programs at Ernst and Young, Microsoft, at SAP where you have some companies that are again, they're slow to the table, but they're beginning to realize that they should look for promoting employment among Autistic people, because they're looking for the person who can do this job. They're looking for someone who has the skills, who as announced, they're not looking for charity, they have their other charity arms of the company. They have their other causes that they support, which are all well and good again, not to diminish charity that's in any way minimize the value of helping people out. But if an employer that hard nosed employer has the attitude of this is not the place for charity, well, that employer should, and hopefully will very well learn that it's within their own self interest. And the win win there is for the employee as well.  Let's take it from the perspective of the Autistic employee. No one wants to be hired. I shouldn't say no one, overstatement, but most people don't want to be hired. because someone's going to be doing them a favor. No one wants to be resented for what they can do at work. No one wants to have their talents diminished and ignored.  And that's where I've mentioned both unemployment and underemployment. The idea that when an Autistic person gets the job, well, what about promotion? What about retention? What about moving up in the company? And an employee who was told from the get go, you don't have a promising future here, but we'll let you have the job is that much less likely to be able to do that job that they're being hired to do, and to do it in a good way and to do it as best as they can, so that they can continue to move up in the company. 

Philip King-Lowe
I also want to um call out a particular evil, that many Autistics and in this one, I'm going to give some room to others with those who may have mental health issues. I want to put this out there. Because I have had this said to me, and I'm sure others have had have heard this. When someone is having some difficulty in a workplace and they tried to discuss it with a superior, a manager or whomever. And they actually have the nerve to say "This is not a mental hospital." "This is not a therapy unit." Um, I have heard some who have had that said to them, and I have also heard, been on the other side of someone actually saying that horrible thing. We need to name that that is I want to say is about as evil as someone can get. That is not kind, that is not, I don't even think that should be defendable. But unfortunately there are those of us who have heard those words.

Philip King-Lowe
We will launch into my third question here. What steps do Autistic Adults and our supporters need to take to advocate for our needs?  And, we could talk about so many of these. But, please talk about what you think many of us Autistic Adults can do, what steps we can take, can take to advocate for our needs, in terms of justice in employment, because I think many of us in the Autistic community really do need some idea, what can we really do? In a system that really is, is not friendly?

Samuel J. Levine
Yeah, that's a great question and a very challenging question. I'm interested in your thoughts. And the last thing I would want to do is to prescribe, you should do this, you must do this, you know, what's been said. And I like some of these things, I think they capture a lot of the reality here. You know, it's been said that we spend so much time and effort telling Autistic people how they should act around neurotypical people, let's put some of that effort into helping or requiring everyone else to understand how to interact with Autistic people, and to understand Autistic people. So I'm a bit reluctant to say this is what Autistic people should do. But at the same time, it's important for everyone to recognize how they're perceived by others. And whether it's a matter of recognizing, starting from the interview process, I would say. And here, when I mentioned unemployment, the interview screening process is really an opportunity, unfortunately, for discrimination. That's where an employer, apotential employer can speak with the applicant. And they can find all kinds of reasons or no reason at all, for deciding not to move forward with that application.  And they can give if necessary, all kinds of reasons. Or they can just say, "Sorry, it's been nice to meet you. But we don't have an opening, or we had so many qualified applicants, and we're sorry, we decided to move forward with someone else." Well, what is it about the interview process that Autistic people often find very challenging?  And here's where it's important to recognize, here to another saying I'll use but I think this is well put, "If someone's good at an interview, that means they're really good at interviewing." Most employers are not hiring people to do interviews. Some are, you know, I suppose that if you're hiring your PR person, if you're hiring your spokesperson, you want them to be able to put a spin on things, you want them to be involved in public relations, they're going to be challenged by a reporter they have to on the spot and they have some really clever answer that in some ways, again, spins the truth, or even mistakes, in some ways, obfuscates. Well, as it turns out, Autistic people, again, a generalization but you know, I think quite accurate. Autistic people are often very truthful, very trusting. And in the job interview, believe it or not, that's not what the interviewer is usually looking for.  And so, when they get to that question, that routine question in the interview, what are some of your weaknesses? So that's where most applicants will use the opportunity to spin that question in a way that promotes their candidacy and actually speaks well of them. They'll say things like, "Oh, my weakness, I'm a perfectionist." Is a perfectionist a weakness? Well, they'll make it sound like they're disclosing one of their weaknesses, but they're actually trying to promote themselves are actually complimenting themselves and kind of backhanded that back end in reverse way. They're trying to bring some of their skills to the forefront; "I'm a perfectionist. I'll do the job all the way to the end."  Well it's interesting. Those are some of the qualities that you mentioned just a moment ago, Philip as common among Autistic individuals who have that dedication often, who are going to do the job as demanded and often do it quite well. But instead of giving that answer, they may say things about their actual weakness. They may not realize that this is not the time for being truthful and candid, or even at the start of the interview, where it's often a scenario where the interviewer will say something kind of casual. It's kind of small talk, just to get to know the applicant, and some Autistic people have challenges when it to small talk. They want to get to the point. They want to get to the heart of the matter. They want to make those important realizations, observations, and bring those to the forefront. Well, the interview may or may very well not be the time to bring all that out. Autistic people may be truthful about some of the problems that they see if an employer says, Well, "If you work for our company, what would be some of the ideas that you'd have for us?"  So here to, in most interviews, the expectation is that the applicant, even if they do have some criticism, even if they do have some suggestions for the company, they will find a way to spin those suggestions that kind of compliments the company, that even compliments the interviewer in a way that will hopefully endear them to the interviewer and help them get to the next stage in the application process. Well, Autistic people sometimes are brutally honest with the truth. And if they see a problem, they may bring it to the attention of the interviewer in a less than diplomatic way. In a less than nuance, again, not to stereotype, and certainly not to criticize, but this is the reality that I think we often see in the interview. And here's where again, I placed the burden not on the applicant, but on the employer. On the interviewer. If someone has the ability, to be honest with you, to be trusting with you, to bring to your attention, a concern that they have with your company, you should jump at the opportunity to hire that person. You don't need someone else who's just going to be like everyone else working there, just letting things slide. That's exactly what an employer needs.

Philip King-Lowe
What advice might you give to many Autistics about if it is appropriate, or when it is appropriate to disclose? That subject comes up all the time. What is your thoughts about that? 

Samuel J. Levine
Exactly right. This is a real challenge. I recently had a panel discussion, I participate in a panel discussion among law students. And as a law professor, as someone who has worked in law offices, who has interviewed applicants for jobs, who has obviously been interviewed myself many times, I recognize that there are all kinds of questions about disabilities, and when should someone who has a disability and in particular, as you mentioned, Autistic people, I just want to say, I'm using the term Autistic people in here, too. I defer to your term, I don't want to use a term, anyone's uncomfortable with whether it's on the spectrum or Autistics or Autistic people, you know, so going beyond those very important questions.  When it comes to an invisible disabilities, such as Autism, there's no right answer, and there may not be a good answer on the one hand, and we went through this, and I spoke with many of the students who are going through this themselves as are interviewing with law firms. Well, if you don't disclose from the outset, then the firm might see you as being less than honest, less than open with them. How come you didn't tell us beforehand? Well, if you disclose from the outset, obviously, well, not obviously. But you know, it is obvious, I guess, those of us who are familiar, then you're facing the potential for discrimination, and that form of implicit or unstated discrimination. So there really is no good answer, I think we may be able to look to other areas of discrimination. I've mentioned that analogies to other areas of civil rights, and of anti-discrimination laws might be helpful. And in those areas as well, there is no good answer. The real answer, the real good answer is the employer should be the one not to be discriminating. But short of that we're clearly not at that point. In many of these different areas of discrimination, it remains an open and very difficult question. 

Philip King-Lowe
Yeah, we agree. You know, um, the Autism Society actually has a, I'm sorry, the Autism Society of Minnesota actually has a sheet that they've produced about the advantages of, of disclosing when and what could happen and what could be the consequences or the benefits of. So, and there's some very interesting answers on there. Um,you know, and and, you know, especially since, um, an Autistic might have to ask for some accommodations. I mean, how exactly do they ask for those if they don't disclose? 

Samuel J. Levine
And here's a thing you may find fascinating, I hope you will, I find it fascinating analogy that you may find me an unusual analogy or not. You and I had been discussing the fact that I have Rabbinic backward background I teach Jewish law.  I have written in a book about Joseph in the Bible, and Autism. Well, a question that sometimes arises for individuals who wear a yarmulke, is whether they should wear the yarmulke when they're interviewing? And it's interesting. And very sad that I had classmates, there have been informal studies done. And I think it's gone beyond the anecdotal where individuals will go for interviews, sometimes wearing a yarmulke, sometimes not. And being much more successful in their interviews when they did not wear their yarmulke. Because the employer is discriminating, and the question arises, the next step quite similar to your point is, well, if they don't wear the yarmulke good to me interview, and then they have to ask for, again, quote unquote, accommodations they have to disclose to the employer. Well, I observed Friday night and Saturday as a Sabbath. Is that okay with you? It should be okay. Under the law, it pretty much has to be okay. And of course, the employee, the applicant is going to say, and in good faith, I'm going to make sure to do the job as good or unfortunately, when it comes to this discrimination, the burden is going to be to do the job twice as good as anyone else to if you're not going to be in the office on Friday night and Saturday. That means Saturday night comes in, you're in the office all night. Sunday, other people are taking off. Okay, you're working all day, to make the point. To make the point that everyone has some accommodations that are provided for them. And the employer should recognize that in a productive workplace, people will produce in different ways. I'm not sure how perfectly and it's obviously an imperfect analogy. I'm not sure how perfectly that translates to Autism, but I think it is food for thought.

Philip King-Lowe
Yeah, um, yeah, this is one of this is a place where I have to say, the usuals, I tell my audience about know your Autism, which is still true and know how to communicate it is also true. And telling your stories, which I happen to believe, is most important. I would say that, when it comes to employment, places where you were employed is probably the most complicated place to decide, when, if and how to tell your stories. Um, you know, um, but um, sometimes in situations like this,
It may be best to at least have a therapist nearby that you can ask, what do you think would be a good idea? Um, you know, because I have to say that if I were in a an employment situation, where I was being employed by somebody, and I had to question whether or not I tell them about my Autism, I think I would ask my therapists first before I divulged and then take the therapists ideas into my head. Um, sometimes the stories that are told or through what you do versus what you don't do. Um, but I also think that Autistics could self advocate, by simply, I say, simply, and I apologize, it's not exactly a simple matter. But we need to get help people understand Autism better. And we also need to find what our supports are, that are going to help make that difference. Um, you know, one can say they're intolerant and yet be inwardly intolerance. You know, I'm sorry, one can say we're tolerant and then be very intolerant within. And I think we've already touched on that. But in terms of telling our stories, and being our own experts, it still applies here. I was asked by somebody about how I came up with the idea to begin the podcast and um, and and here's my answer to that. That, I think is a good place to, to talk about some self advocacy and storytelling. What you will be most successful at is something that you are passionate about. If you're really passionate about drawing or mathematics or, or various things, that is, that is what will tell your story quite well. Um, but you know, my passion is Autistic Adults. And so that's what's the purpose there is to try to find an avenue to use it. Um, it's not as simple as other other space to talk about our stories and how to be our best. But the point is, is Autistics can in fact be our be at our best. Um, before this particular show, I interviewed Dan Carmichael, the co-owner of GT Independence, who is Autistic himself. There are great Autistic people who have been doing some great work in their time. And it is a testimony that Autistic Adults can in fact, excel at something. Um, my answers here are a little bit spotted. But I think I'm making a point. And of course, it's up to the audience listening to decide one point, and how that point is going to apply. 

Commercial Break III

Future Shows

June is LGBTQIA+ Pride Month.  June 18^th is Autistic Pride Day.  Today’s Autistic Moment will celebrate both with two exciting shows. 

On June 7^th, I will publish the episode Autistic Adults: Our Diverse Sexual Orientations.  I will be joined by Heidi, Luke and Benjamin who will share some of their experiences of being Autistic and the challenges each have met with coming to terms with their sexual orientation.  They will talk about coming out, dating, and what being individuals on multiple spectrums has meant for each of them. I am also an Autistic Adult who is gay, and I appreciate these individuals being so courageous about sharing their stories with us.

On June 21^st, I will publish the episode Autistic Adults: Our Diverse Gender Identities.  My guest is Enzi Tanner, a trans-man who is a person of color and is Jewish. Enzi will talk with me about the many challenges he experiences as an individual that crosses neurodiversity along with gender, racial and religious differences.

Come celebrate Pride Month 2021 by listening to these amazing individuals. 

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

Philip King-Lowe
Well, Samuel Levine, I want to thank you so much for being on Today's Autistic Moment and talking about these very important issues today. Um, I think there is much more to do agreed. And I think Autistic Adults themselves, we need to become more involved in helping to make some of these changes as best as we can. In closing here, do you have any suggestions about resources, or, or any, anything that you would recommend that my listeners checked out to help them with matters that we've been talking about?

Samuel J. Levine
Well, Philip, first of all, thank you again, for having me. As I mentioned, it really is a pleasure and an honor for me to have the opportunity to participate in your very important work in this way. And to draw on your point of storytelling, and the lived experiences and the first person narrative. And here's where, once again, within the law, there has been this turn towards storytelling. And for some, well come on to another story. But the reality is, if we're going to change people's hearts and minds, once again, there's only so much you can do by passing the ADA, there's only so much you can do by passing the anti discrimination laws. And I think it's very much you know, another saying that I'm very much a proponent of "Nothing about us without us." And it's not limited to the reality that it's insensitive, counterproductive. Now, take your pick, for people who aren't Autistic to try to tell Autistic people what to do, or how to think or how to act. But even more so to your excellent point about someone doing the best job at something they're passionate about. About the ability to succeed if you really care, and you know yourself better than anyone else. And you can tell your own story better than anyone else. And the law has recognized within legal scholarship, certainly law professors. And the law itself, has recognized that sometimes stories can go a lot further than a technical law, a technical role, a speech about what people should or shouldn't do.  I know we talked briefly about the book I'd written and I don't want to spend much time on it. But I did write a book about biblical Joseph being on the Autism Spectrum. And part of what I'm doing there, and I'm hoping that book can achieve is to tell a story. Because stories sometimes can change hearts and minds a lot more than a technical analysis of the legal contours of discrimination or anti discrimination law or interviews or employment. And that's where I think we do have to focus on changing hearts and minds and for most people, although Temple Grandin or the biblical Joseph in my reading, they're not the average or if there is such thing as a typical Autistic person, but a story can change people's minds in a way that a lecturer may not do.

Philip King-Lowe
Yeah, I would agree with that. There's there Autistic people do have an ability to be a teacher just through our lived experiences. Very much so. Um, we do have an incredible guy. Actually, he owns a company in Eden Prairie, Minnesota called Sammy Sweets.  And he had some difficulties in, in various places, but somehow he learned how to bake cookies and cakes and, and, and cupcakes in a way and he and his family are running the business from it. And I mean, he is absolutely phenomenal with what he can do.  And that is one of those examples of a story told of how an Autistic took one particular talent of his, one particular ability of his and turned it into something that is just absolutely marvelous, at what he's achieving. And and, you know, I, you know, I think it's fair to close in saying you were talking about, it's beneficial to the to the employer, to hire many Autistic people in what they can do. Because once they learn a skill, they can excel and they can excel, the good, the good work that a company agency, does, they really, we really can, if we were given those opportunities, and I think one of those things that we're definitely advocating here is giving Autistic Adults the opportunity to make those differences. I think that's very much at the heart of that. Um, Samuel, if anyone wants to reach you, how can they do that? 

Samuel J. Levine
So you can find me, if you Google my name, Samuel Levine, to Touro. The school, I teach is spelled Touro Law School in New York. And if you Google my name, and you put Touro in the search, you should probably come up with my faculty page. And that's got all my contact information. 

Philip King-Lowe
Well, very good. Well, Samuel J. Levine, thank you once again for being a guest today. 

Samuel J. Levine
Thank you, Philip. It's been a real pleasure.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai 

Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board

June Workshop in Austin, Minnesota, features Judy Endow. Autism Friendly Austin, the Autism Society of Minnesota and the Hormel Historic Home will co-host “Autistically Thriving: Living a Self-Determined Life.” An in-person and virtual informative workshop held on June 10^th from 8am to 4pm led by Judy Endow, LCSW, author and international speaker on a variety of autism-related topics.  I have heard Judy Endow speak, and the information she shares is invaluable.  I highly recommend attending this session to listen to Judy.

The form is now open to apply to present a breakout session at the 2021 Virtual Autistic Community Summit on September 18^th. Submit your application to be a presenter by July 2^, 2021.  Suggested topics include Literature and arts from Autistics. Navigating and self-directing support services. Managing interactions with medical providers. How to write a waiver.  Meaningful inclusion, especially for those with higher support needs. Hiring and training staff.  Person centered planning across the lifespan.  Autism and mental health.  Autism pride and self-acceptance. Autism and intersectionality, including race, age, gender, sexuality etc. Shut downs and meltdowns. Emotional regulation. Managing medical interactions. Masking.  For more information contact Zephyr James at 651-647-2081 ext. 23 or send an email to zjames@ausm.org. 

Remember you can always send me an email to PKLowe@todaysautisticmoment.com.  todaysautisticmoment@gmail.com . Please follow Today’s Autistic Moment on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. 

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.