Autistic Adults and Interdependence

Autistic Adults and Interdependence

August 23, 2021

[You will notice that some words have a strike through font.  These are to reflect the new website created in September 2022]

Welcome everyone to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult. My name is Philip King-Lowe, the owner, producer, and host; and I am an Autistic Adult.  Thank you so very much for listening.

Today’s Autistic Moment is a member of the National Podcast Association.

Today’s Autistic Moment is always a free to listen to podcast that gives Autistic Adults access to important information, learns about our barriers, and helps us discover the tools and strengths we need for self-advocacy. 

This first segment of Today’s Autistic Moment is sponsored by The Autism Society of Minnesota: Minnesota’s First Autism Resource.  The Autism Society of Minnesota has been serving Minnesota’s Autism Community for the past 50 Years. Visit them online at ausm.org.

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On Tuesday, August 10^th, I was interviewed by Meghan Grey from KEYC News in North Mankato, Minnesota.  There was a brief segment on their 6 o’clock news that evening about what Today’s Autistic Moment is doing.  Check out the link to the brief segment on the home page for todaysautisticmoment.com.  While you are there, don’t forget to check out the store to purchase a coffee mug, or a 16 oz double wall stainless steel vacuum bottle or a fidget with the logo for Today’s Autistic Moment on them.

On Wednesday, October 20^th I will be hosting the very first Autistic Voices Round Table Discussions virtual event.  The topic for discussion will be Person First and Identity First Language.  I am seeking three individuals that identify as a “person with Autism,” and three who identify as an “Autistic person.”  I am planning to have a very honest and civil conversation through which all the participants will share their opinions by answering questions that will be asked.  Autistic Voices is an opportunity to bring the voices of Autistic people to the forefront to talk about issues such as what identity language we use, without those discussions being dominated by non-autistic people.  I will be getting some great sponsors, so that the event will be free of charge for people to attend.  I am accepting applications from Autistic individuals who want to be participants in the round table discussions until Friday, September 3^rd.  Go to todaysautisticmoment.com/autisticvoices/ for more information and to apply to participate. 

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On August 13^th, an article was written on today.com by Laura T. Coffey entitled Why There’s a War Between Parents of Children with Autism and Autistic Adults.  Coffey writes about a parent with an Autistic Child, and their attempts to seek support on social support groups on Facebook and Instagram.  The parent says that whenever they write something about their Autistic child, Autistic Adults attack them.  Further on in the article they interviewed a doctor who said, “Most Autistic people become less disabled as they get older and sometimes, we get strikingly less disabled.”  They also interviewed someone who is involved with the “National Council on Severe Autism.” 

The more I read the article, the more I remembered my episode with Nicola Whiting about Autistic Adults: Media Portrayal or Betrayal.  Once again, Autistic Adults have been poorly stereotyped by suggesting that many of us are at war with parents with Autistic Children, when that is far from the truth.  The article is written from the point of view of the caregiver of an Autistic Child, with no appreciation for the input, feelings, and intelligence of Autistic Adults. The quote by the doctor is full of ableism, by suggesting that it is hopeful that Autistics will “become less disabled as they get older.” As an Autistic Adult with various disabilities, I find that quite offensive.  The value Autistic Adults bring to themselves, and society should not be the subject of who is more disabled than someone else.  In my opinion, what is written in the article adds more fuel to the social fires Autistic Adults are already being harmed by, and fans the flames so that they are out of control to further stigmatize us.  This article is a betrayal to Autistic Adults.  Caregivers of Autistic people can learn a lot if they will only listen to the experiences of Autistic Adults and give us some credit that we understand ourselves very well.  Many of us are in a lifetime of therapy from the trauma of being marginalized for being unique in terms of how we think, do things, process the environments around us, and communicate with others.  Autistic Adults are speaking up to tell others that we do know our own Autism, and we do have voices and strengths to advocate for ourselves.  We need more advocates and supporters, not more bullies.

Articles like that one are precisely why Today’s Autistic Moment’s podcast and Autistic Voices Round Table Discussions are here.  Autistic Adults have been left in our rooms and basements, assumed to be unable to represent our own interests for far too long.  It is past time for the voices of Autistic people to be heard, and non-autistic people need to listen to us for a change. That is why I host these programs.

Another misconception about Autistic Adults is exactly why Zephyr James is here to talk with me about Interdependence.  Interdependence is a concept that Autistic Adults need to become better acquainted with.  Too many Autistic Adults are presumed to be incapable of taking care of ourselves and therefore we are all supposed to be dependent on others in group home or institutionalized settings.  The other extreme is that we become independent.  To be independent suggests that we are all on our own.  Companies like GT Independence helps disabled people manage our own care.  Yet, those who use their services are clearly not totally independent, because they work with others to help them. 

Zephyr James is the Community Engagement Management at the Autism Society of Minnesota to work on their latest project of helping Autistics to focus on being interdependent.  The focus for the project this year is in four areas.  Healthy Relationships.  Building Strong Families.  Connected Communities. Independence and Interdependence.  The work for interdependence is to help Autistics to live into our individual strengths, while depending on others for the appropriate assistance we may need. 

After this first commercial break, I will begin my conversation with Zephyr James about Autistic Adults and Interdependence.  Stay tuned.

Commercial Break I

Philip King-Lowe  
Zephyr, I've invited you to come back on to Today's Autistic Moment, and to be clear, Zephyr was my guest earlier this year, when we talked about COVID-19. Zephyr, then went by the name Olivia James, she has now been accepted a new name of Zephyr. And we're here to talk about this new, I'm going to call it a new adventure that the Autism Society of Minnesota is undertaking to talk about interdependence. Which is a very interesting thought. Because as I read through AuSM's website about this topic, we talked about how dependent Autistics can be for their needs to be met, and also how we also want to strive for independence. And I guess, the way I read the material suggests that no, we want to help Autistic, Autistics be interdependent. So I'm, I'm very excited about this, because it's a really great thing to be looking at. So, What information do Autistic Adults and our supporters need when we talk about interdependence? Can you talk a little bit about what this is?

Zephyr James
Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing I want to say is that interdependence, as it relates to disability is an absolutely gigantic topic. And so we'll get into some elements of it today. But if there are pieces that, you know, as an audience member, you might be thinking, Oh, why didn't they talk about this? I absolutely. You know, there's there's tons of other things that we could talk about here. So I'll do my best to cover as much as I can. But it's a huge, huge topic. So basically, the way that this initiative came about was that I took on a new role at the Autism Society, the role of Community Engagement Manager. And as part of that, I was talking with the rest of my my team and my manager, and we were thinking about the idea of, is there a theme that we could focus on for the year? Is there sort of an overarching concept that could bring together some of the different resources and supports and educational opportunities that we have? And the more I thought about it, the more the word interdependence came up, because I've been working at the Autism Society for six years now. And I hear a lot of focus on independence. Is a person living independently? Can they have a job independently? Can they access their community independently? And the more that I think about that, the more I think it's a little bit misguided, because no humans are independent in the most literal sense of that word. We all rely on each other. You know, unless you have built your own home, grow all your own food, provide your own electricity, you're relying on someone else's skill sets, in order to live the life that you live. And so the idea that Autistics need to be independent when no one else really does is a little bit wild to me. And I think it makes more sense to recognize that in interdependence to recognize that we are communal creatures, and part of what makes us good at surviving, the way we do is that each of us brings different things to the table. And then we will rely on the skill sets of the people around us. And I think that Autistics can really thrive when we approach things in that way. When we say, maybe you are really bad at living independently, maybe that's just like not gonna work for you. And that's okay because you can contribute other things. You might be dependent on a PCA in your home to help caretake for you, but other people will depend on you in other ways. And that's a normal, a natural part of human existence, to rely on each other and have these networks of interdependence. So that was really where it came from was this sort of philosophical background of like, it's a human thing to rely on other people. And we don't have to feel ashamed about that. And we don't have to stigmatize that. And if we recognize it, and celebrate it, I think we can be much more effective in providing the supports that people need, and recognizing the skills that they have.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, I like the fact that you mentioned the word community, because I think the Autistic community is still working on community building. Because, you know, so many, Autistics remain isolated from others. And I think creating Autistic community through interdependence is a way to bring people out of those isolation shadows. Those corners that we've kind of been forced into, because of ableism, and some of the many other issues that we confront, you know, social communications and that sort of thing. So, um, so so I'm sure that you're all looking at this as a means of community building among Autistics.

Zephyr James  
Yeah, absolutely. I kind of broke down the year into four seasons, so that I could have a better handle on into interdependence. Kind of trying to approach the entirety of interdependence at once was a little overwhelming to me. So I first focused on healthy relationships. And right now I'm just wrapping up a section on families. But the next piece that I want to look at is community building its communities. And I was just having a conversation with our Executive Director about what kinds of resources we're hoping to be able to put together for this section. And one that I'm really excited about is a resource to help Autistics and their families and their community members. Try mutual aid, which is a form of support that has grown up in a lot of oppressed communities. It's something that's really common in communities of color, and queer communities. And the idea is that people don't need charity, they don't need someone who is sort of placed above them who is handing out money or services based on what they think people need. And as a community, we can offer each other the skills that we have. You know, so if I'm very good at cooking, and my friend is very good at cleaning, we might do a swap. And I cook a meal prep for them for a week, and they come over and clean my house once a week. And that's a version of mutual aid. Minnesotans have a really long history of mutual aid. Because if we didn't, the winters would really get to us, you know, stopping and helping dig someone out of a snowbank when their car goes off the road that's mutually too. So really focusing on this idea of as individuals, how do we connect with other community members, offer them help and ask for what we need, in order to build a stronger community as a whole is something that I really want to focus on in the next couple of months.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, that sounds like a great thing. Tell me, tell us a little bit about what you've discovered in those first two areas that you've already looked into.

Zephyr James
Yeah. So the first thing I've discovered is that people are really excited about the concept of interdependence, which doesn't seem like that interesting of a discovery. But I was actually surprised by it. You know, I don't hear the word interdependence very often in disability spaces. And once I started saying it, people responded so quickly, and we're so excited about this idea. It resonated. And I think there's a reason for that. And it's because we're only offered two options. One is you're dependent, and that makes you a burden. And there's a lot of stigma associated with that. Or you're interdependent, and you don't get to ask for help. And you have to do everything on your own.

Philip King-Lowe  
I think you meant independent,

Zepyr James  
Independent, sorry, yes, you're independent, and you have to do everything on your own and you can't ask for help. And I think that is kind of a trap to think that there's only those two options. And it can be very freeing for a lot of people to realize that they don't have to do one of those two things. They can do their life in a different way. Beyond that, you know, we've put together a lot of more specific resources. In our first section about relationships, we put together some quick facts about Autism and sexuality because there are a lot of myths and misconceptions about Autism and sexuality. Many people assume that Autistics are not sexual or don't have sexual relationships. And that's just incorrect. We also created a really comprehensive piece called Relationship Guideposts. That sort of to help people see examples of what healthy, unhealthy and abusive relationships look like, and a lot of different areas. So looking at communication, what does healthy communication look like? What does unhealthy communication look like so that you can kind of start to see, oh, if my partner keeps talking to me this way, or treating me this way, maybe I need to be worried, maybe I need to ask for some help or check in with someone to make sure that I'm healthy. And I'm safe. Because I know that I personally have been in really unhealthy and abusive relationships. And the only way that I identified it was when my partner said something that I had literally been told was a red flag. And I thought to myself, I have heard that phrase before. And I know that that phrase means that someone is trying to control me. So I think our very literal brains can sometimes benefit from having clear and concrete examples of things to help us stay safe in our relationship.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, even even in a situation like, you know that I've interviewed one of the co-owners to GT Independence. But you know, although he's talking about living independently, part of that is being interdependent upon the agency to help manage the finances. So there there is some give and take there.

Zephyr James 
Yeah, exactly. One of the other things that I've been working on in the in the family section is some really practical resources for people to use to build a life that they like. So one of them is a worksheet to help create family traditions. A lot of families or parents who are neurotypical, maybe inherit traditions from their families, and they have a child who is Autistic. And those traditions may not work for an Autistic kid. And you might have to build your new, you might have to build new ones. And that's totally okay. But many families feel a little bit lost about how to do that. So it's a resource to help with that. I created a sensory schedule sheet, which is a way for an individual or Family or Household to identify sensory supports, and then figure out how and when they'd like to use them. And so far, I've gotten a really positive feedback on those practical resources that people can take and use in their own lives. And I am so excited about how hungry people are to be able to just have a little structure so that they can go ahead and do what they need to do. That, to me speaks to this need for interdependence, where people are like, just give me a little bit of help, and I will go the rest of the way on my own. And I think that the more we recognize that the more we recognize that when we provide people with tools, they do amazing things, the better off we're going to be.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, I would agree with that. 

Commercial Break II

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Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

Philip King-Lowe
Let's move into my second question, which is what are the barriers for Autistic Adults of all ages, when we're talking about interdependence? And you did a fantastic presentation at the State Conference about personality versus pathology. And I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that, you know, how we're perceived as a pathology versus as person personalities, definitely can be a barrier to interdependence.

Zephyr James
Yeah, I mean, I would absolutely agree. I think that when people see our personalities as a diagnosis or a disorder, they're much less likely to connect with us in a real human way. We are often seen as something to be fixed instead of a person to be in community with and that can shut down that give and take. There's also just a lot of very literal barriers. You know, many people who are living in group homes, oftentimes do not have literal access to their communities to build the interdependence that they need to build the code. actions and relationships that create an interdependent community. There is a lot of segregation of disabled people. And when you segregate people, they don't have the same opportunity to build community, build relationships, connect with other people. Exactly. Yeah. And, and that is a huge issue for this idea that we have things to contribute. Because if nobody sees us, if nobody talks to us, they don't realize that we have things to contribute. 

Philip King-Lowe  
Which brings me to one of those barriers. And you know, I have to bring it up, because we kind of can't help that is this horrible presumption of incompetence, that we all live with. You know, that people are presuming that because we're disabled, because we're Autistic. You know, even if Sir Anthony Hopkins is Autistic, and has had a brilliant acting career. But there's still this presumption that being Autistic must mean, that we're, quote, on quote, as some say, "severely Autistic," so we can't really communicate or add something. Or if that we're not quite like that we must not be Autistic, we must be lying, perhaps. So there is this presumption of incompetence. And because of that, too, that definitely is a barrier to this. This community building through interdependence,

Zephyr James
Yeah, I think the word that's coming up for me is authenticity. I think it's really hard to be truly interdependent, if all of the people involved involved aren't authentic. If they're not open and honest about what they can and can't do or do and don't want to do. And in order to get a really robust, interdependent community, everybody has to be willing to say, I'm going to put aside my preconceived notions of how you need to live, or what types of tasks you need to be able to do. And instead, look at the actual facts of what you feel comfortable doing, so that we can put together something that works for us. And when there's assumptions and stigma about what we can and can't do, we cannot be our authentic selves, we cannot show up as the whole people that we are because people around us refuse to see that.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, that's that goes along with that terrible stigma that actually, Sara Swan brought up that there that, you know, we don't know how to do things, you know, and that perception, you know, it fuels a lot of the feelings for some Autistic Adults, to feel like they can become interdependent, like they can begin to build those healthy relationships around them, because there is this terrible, terrible presumption that eats away at a self esteem, I don't think that's entirely an unavoidable consequence. You know, that that, because we can't do things therefore, many of us many, many, just give up.

Zephyr James  
Yeah, I, I don't particularly want to be in community with people who judge me or see me as incompetent, right? Like, I could try really hard to convince them. And sometimes we do, because we have to, but it makes it very hard to show up in a sort of open and and hopeful way if the person that you're trying to build a relationship with thinks that you are incompetent, or unworthy,

Philip King-Lowe  
Or even irrelevant.

Zephyr James  
Yeah. Yeah. 

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think that the barrier, a lot of the barriers comes from people's perception of normal. And I like what Ellie said that there's a therapist at AuSM, who's fond of saying that normal is a setting on a washing machine. 

Zephyr James
Yep. We don't we don't really do normal around our office. 

Philip King-Lowe
Oh, no, no, you. You definitely don't. Yeah, so well, this brings us into I say, this is my favorite part of my show. I really love giving Autistic Adults the power to advocate for themselves. And so what steps do Autistic Adults and our supporters need to take to advocate for our needs? And before I let you talk, this is one of those things that I've been so encouraged to see, as I go through many of my networks about some advocates and you know, some of the some like MN Autistics Alliance that you and I are in. I am hearing a very loud, I'm gonna say a very loud sound that many Autistics have really had it with the neurotypical majority, setting our agendas for us, and deciding what our social life should be like how we should function on their level. And I think that interdependence is a wonderful way of self advocacy of advocating for ourselves about that.

Zephyr James  
Yeah, I think that's a wonderful insight. I, there is so much to be done in terms of self- advocacy. It's a little overwhelming. It is. Yeah, I think when, when I'm thinking in terms of interdependence, one of the first things that comes to mind for Autistics to be better advocates for themselves is to talk to other Autistics. And I know many of you out there probably already are, but if you are not, it is so powerful. The more of us that come together, the more insight we get from. This interdependence grows naturally in Autistic spaces, I often find, yeah, anytime I'm around other Autistics, we very naturally start offering each other help and suggestions and support and the wisdom that we have, you know, one person will say, I'm really struggling with this sensory issue. And everybody else will say, Oh, hey, I had something kind of like that. This is what I did. That give and take is so powerful. The other thing I would say is, if you are a support person, or sort of in the in the surrounding community, as I mentioned earlier, offering tools goes a really long way. You don't have to do things for an Autistic person necessarily. There are a surprising number of circumstances in which, if you give somebody a little bit of structure or you know, a little bit of support along the way, they can go really far. And that also is interdependence, that is working together to build something bigger. And that's also assuming competence, that saying, I think you can do this, what do you need for me, here are some options, here are some tools, here are some ideas, let's do it together. And that is huge for support people, because it treats us as an equal. And it gives us respect, and it appreciates us taking control of our lives and making our own decisions. And I really see that as a powerful sort of ally role for our community members who want to make life better for Autistics, and who are looking for an advocacy role for themselves. You know, you can be there and and provide the tools and be the cheerleader or whatever it is that that person needs. And watch them do amazing things.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah. And to the supporters, I would add that one of the things that you can do is to help us discover the tools we already have. And then then encourage us to put those tools to good use. Because I think that there is a connection between when we find the tools, we also find the strengths to use them. And we build on those strengths and interdependence is one of the ways we do that we do that.

Zephyr James  
Absolutely. One of the things that I know I've struggled with, there's an executive function skill called self monitoring, which is the ability to recognize your own behavior, essentially, and compare yourself to an external standards. So it's essentially like, if I do a homework assignment, do I have an idea of whether I'm going to get an A or an F. And it's something that that Autistics often struggle with, because executive function is not our friend. It's something that I struggle with. And so it's really hard for me to identify my strengths and weaknesses. And the more that I talked to my support people and have them reflect back at me like you're very good at this, this and this. Oftentimes, it's things I did not expect or did not realize I was good at at all. So even just having a reflective conversation to help somebody identify what they're good at can go a long way.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yes, I would agree with that. And I think that's the that's the part of what I've spoken up many times about learning about our own Autism, learning about how to communicate it, communicate about our Autism. When, as Autistic Adults, we kind of network with other Autistic Adults to better understand ourselves as well as others and how we're different and yet how we're, we're similar, you know, because you know, the neurodiversity, the whole neurodiversity movement. Um, we do have, we do have and quite frankly, we do need to go through our struggles to accept the neurodiversity that is among us. And it does mean that interdependence is not going, going to be easy for us, as we struggle with the neurodiversity within the Autism community. But interdependence, I'm gonna use this metaphor here, is getting into the journey of how we learn about each other, learn to accept each other, and learn to support each other as we struggle with even our own neurodiversity.

Zephyr James 
Yeah, I would agree. There's even within the Autistic community, there is ableism, and judgement about people who present differently or have different struggles. And that is something we absolutely need to confront. Yeah. And I think you're right, that this question of interdependence forces us to ask, what are the skills and talents of all the different people in this community, regardless of whether they are Autistic in the way that I am?

Philip King-Lowe  
Right. Yeah, and I do think that that neurodiversity, it does involve even those even terms that we don't like to use, the functioning labels, which we already know how we feel about those. But somehow, they are still part of the neurodiversity. And, you know, I wrote in my newsletter for July that, that we need to be allowed to struggle with those things. So that we will continue learning about Autism in ourselves and other people. Um, and it's going to mean, sometimes, having to work within those differences and find those places of, you know, why does this make me clash with somebody else? But, you know, and part of that will be because, you know, as Autistics we have routines, of thought, behavior that we cling to. But, you know, neurodiversity, and I was saying, interdependence, is part of how we, we learn from each other, and how we assist one another in our understanding of ourselves and the Autistic community as a whole.

Zephyr James  
Yeah, I think I agree with, I think you I can't remember exactly how you phrased it. But you said something in there that really made me think that it doesn't do any of us any good to pretend that people who use functioning labels are just evil or stupid. And I think sometimes that's an impulse that some of us have the people who don't like functioning labels, it's easy to write off those who use them. But there's a reason that people cling to those, they're helpful in some ways. They're a shorthand that some people find useful. They also happen to be damaging, and not very nuanced, and not super accurate. And I think that when we recognize the reason that people do things differently from us, we can better connect and educate each other.

Philip King-Lowe  
Right. I mean, I mean, I think you might agree with me that when somebody, you know, is working with a psychotherapist, or an evaluator who says, You have high functioning Autism, that's what they're gonna understand. That's done. And it may take them quite a while to make that journey from Oh, you know, that's not how we that's why that's why that term is so damaging. Yeah. But like I say, I think, you know, yes, Today's Autistic Moment continues to not support the use of those terms. But there is also we do understand why, you know, some would cling to that term, you know, because, like, you know, like we say, we're so used to routines, including the things we're told to believe, and you know, making that journey towards something different can be very, very, very difficult. And interdependce, um, can mean giving each other permission to make those journeys and to become a companion in those journeys.

Commercial Break III

Future Shows

The first Fall Season of Today’s Autistic Moment begins with two shows during which we are going to have some frank conversations about sexuality with sensitive content that may not be appropriate for all audiences.  Listener discretion is advised.  

On September 6^th I will publish the episode Autistic Adults: Dating, Romantic Relationships and Sexuality with Leah Bauman-Smith from the Mad Hatter Wellness Center in St. Paul, Minnesota.

On September 20^th Leah Bauman-Smith returns for the episode Autistic Adults: Let’s Talk About Consent. 

Other shows coming up in the Fall are about Coming Out as Autistic, Transgender and Nonbinary.  Managing Relationships with other Autistics. Preparing for the Sensory Unfriendly Holidays.  Substance Abuse Addiction.  Substance Addiction Recovery, and Internet Safety. 

For updates on the podcast, programs, special events and more go to todaysautisticmoment.com.  You can also follow Today’s Autistic Moment on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.  I invite you to join Today’s Autistic Moment Community Group on Facebook. 

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment.

Zephyr James  
I've been doing a lot of reading about ally ship in a bunch of different communities, often communities of color. And one of the things that has been coming up for me recently is this idea that sometimes the person that you need, by your side is somebody who will stay with you, while you figure out what you did wrong, and how you did it wrong. And walk you through that process and be, you know, be there through all of that discomfort that you're feeling. That, you know, if if we want to move forward as as a, you know, as an Autistic movement, or, you know, as an antiracist movement or whatever type of movement It is, yeah, it's really important that we have some allies who are going to call people out when they do inappropriate things. But it's also important that we have someone who can come in afterwards and say, Alright, I'm here for you. And I will be in conversation with you, once you've messed up so that we can get better together. And I think that's kind of the role that you're talking about here that that role of interdependence to have someone who will say, I'm going to be patient, I'm going to walk with you while you learn to do better. That's not a role for everyone. Its important to have some people who are doing it.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah, yeah, and Autistics, ourselves we can really develop our develop ourselves as we walk with others through those things. You know, I'm you know, I'm building community, among other Autistics can be really, really difficult. And one of my upcoming shows is actually going to be about Autistics managing relationships with other Autistics, that's a, that's a topic I am going to cover in a future show. Um, because we do have those challenges with how we develop those relationships and communicate with each other and that sort of thing. Yeah, so. But, I mean, and, as I often say, these are perfect examples of what I always say about how we tell our stories about what being Autistic means for us. And when we tell those stories like that, whether it's to or with ourselves or with others, that are not Autistic our supporters, including, then we help we help others learn about what being Autistic means for each individual Autistic person.

Zephyr James 
Yeah. You never know, what element of your story is going to resonate with someone else

Philip King-Lowe  
Right. Yeah. Which is why, you know, I'm a fan of saying, you know, keep telling your story, even if you don't think anybodys listening. Because, you know, there is that part of somebody that says, Oh, you know, what, now I get what you mean. You know, that's, that does resonate with some. So, um, what are some of the next next steps for the interdependence project here?

Zephyr James 
Yeah, so I'm gearing up to start building some of the resources for the community focus section. And at the end of that, in late September, we're going to have the Autistic community summit, which is an event that we've had, we're on our fourth year now. But I'm really excited to kind of connect it to this larger project that we've been working on throughout the year. So also shout out to all of our listeners right now, definitely register for that, because that is a chance to learn from a lot of really cool Autistic speakers, and have conversations really similar to the one that Philip and I are having right now. As we move into sort of the Fall and Winter, I'm going to be focused on what I'm calling independence and interdependence. So really, as an individual, what are the skills and resources that I can use to build interdependence. So a lot of things that I focused on so far have been around relationships or groups or communities, but there is a role for the individual person, and what is that? So that's kind of rounding out our year. And we're looking at 2022 and trying to figure out if we're going to take on a new topic, or if we're going to extend interdependence because there's still a lot of stuff that we want to talk about and get into. So it's definitely possible that we'll be extending it into the next year and looking to make it bigger and better because to be honest, this is a project that I started in March And without, you know, funding or or other people kind of helping me with it. So having a little bit more time to plan for the next year, we're really hoping to be able to maybe get some grants and have a little bit more pre-planning so that we can make it even more what people want.

Philip King-Lowe  
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, except for I just think this is such a great topic. And I'm really excited that AuSM is taking this on. And, you know, I am just so grateful that you're, you're taking this on yourself for what you do with it. Um, I have heard you speak many times, and you're always got a wealth of information that comes from you, that, you know, I treasure a lot. I really do. And if I may say, I was able to share with my therapist, a little bit of your exercise from your, your, your presentation at which you started talking about neurotypical syndrome. And he absolutely loved it. You see, just said, whoever that person is. They're brilliant. I agree. You know, so, yeah. So, no, you know, you're welcome. Yeah. So, Zephyr thank you for being on today. And let's also say that, if you want to want more information about this, you can always go to ausm.org and Zephyr, what is your email address? If they want to contact you?

Zephyr James  
Yeah, you can contact me at ZJames@ausm.org. I am really interested in hearing feedback about sort of what we've done so far with interdependence, or topics or ideas of what you'd like to see. So definitely get in touch. I want this to be a conversation as much as possible.

Philip King-Lowe  
Yeah. Good. And I think you're off to a great start. I really do. All right. Thank you for being on today Zephyr. 

Zephyr James
Thank you so much for having me. This was great. 

Philip King-Lowe
Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai 

Today’s Autistic Community Bulletin Board

On Sunday, September 19^th, 2021, Minnesota Independence College and Community invites you to their 4^th Annual IndePENNdance 5k Run/Walk at Donaldson Park in Richfield, Minnesota.  Check In/Registration is at 9:15am, the race starts at 10:00am.  Go to www.miccommunity.org/5k. 

Registration is now open to attend the virtual Autism Community Summit 2021 on Saturday, September 18^th, from 9:00am to 4:30pm. 

Go to ausm.org to register.

If you have any questions for me, you can always send an email to PKLowe@todaysautisticmoment.com   

todaysautisticmoment@gmail.com 

Thank you for listening to Today’s Autistic Moment: A Podcast for Autistic Adults by An Autistic Adult.